UAW wages to blame?

[DeeVeeEight]

Hey, anyone see the news report this morning about the guy who hasn't worked in 4 years, yet GM had to pay him full salary and benefits. All he had to do was show up once a week and he had to get paid. Oh, and BTW, he worked another full time job the whole time.

I don't car what you say about executive salaries, they amount to NOTHING compared to this kind of abuse.

All you have to know about unions is this:

When a union guy does work on his house, does he hire union people at union wages, under union rules..... Why not?

I rest my case.

Here in NJ I am required to be licensed to perform home improvements by the NJ Division of Consumer Affairs. They make sure that I am registered, insured and paying my sales and use tax BUT they do not have any people in place to prevent unlicensed contractors from performing work. My costs are higher than a non licensed competitor - what am I supposed to do?
The other thing that is wrong with our NJ home improvement licensing system is that if I decide to "turn in" a suspected unlicensed contractor I am treated like a pain in the ass by the powers that be - go figure..... There is no justice for the honest!
Sorry - I know it is not exactly related but I had to get that one off my chest.

I can not afford to hire Union carpenters or painters, I can barely get by as it is. Government taxes me to death on my income, on my property (10 k per year) on what I spend (7% sales tax) and they keep wanting more. The IRS wants to audit me :crapI HAVE NO ******* MONEY GUYS! GO FISHING SOMEWHERE ELSE). I am getting older and more tired, I have less fight in me. Pretty soon I am going to have to close my doors and just hand the keys for all my property (except the 'Vette) over to my beloved government.:surrender:

So no - I have no sympathy for the banks, the automakers and the rest. Call me unpatriotic or unAmerican if you want, I am too worn out and have seen too much lopsided **** to care.

:beer:

 

[DeeVeeEight]

All you have to know about unions is this:

When a union guy does work on his house, does he hire union people at union wages, under union rules..... Why not?

I rest my case.

Actually, I have used Union Electricians, Carpenters, and a Plumber to work on my house. The largest per hour paid was my NON-UNION roofer. I could not find a Union roofer that does housing.
Your case is flawed.

You must be one of the few exceptions out there. Most people look for a bargain and find it too.

 

[big2bird]

WTF is wrong with society? I want to know why I'm backing UAW pensions, bailout or not.

Let's get the facts straight, shall we?
It is a LOAN, not a gift.
FORD has said they have enough capital for 2 years. They also use the UAW, and don't seem to have the trouble that GM and Chrysler does.
IF GM had paid their "labor debt", and not their suppliers, we would not be having this discussion. BUT, they paid their "material suppliers", and not their "Labor debt." THIS was to focus BLAME away from management.
They have a "contract" with labor, just like they have one with their suppliers. IT was negotiated in good faith.
As for foregoing pensions, SS is not enough. Self funded pensions are needed. People are living longer, and need the income. The buden on society without it would be enormous.
Society has always helped the elders ever since the caveman gave the scraps to the old and sick. It's just human nature. It's what we do.
Perhaps Soyent Green is the answer.:smash:

 

[Jsup]

Those who have no confidence in their ability and capability, lean on a union to make them successful.

I guess that would be me then.

I don't know if it is. If you are good at what you do, you'd be successful with or without a union, no?

Those who are great will rise to the top, the Union is holding them back. Those who aren't, get supported. It's a monolithic environment that treats all similarly.

 

[big2bird]

All you have to know about unions is this:

When a union guy does work on his house, does he hire union people at union wages, under union rules..... Why not?

I rest my case.

Actually, I have used Union Electricians, Carpenters, and a Plumber to work on my house. The largest per hour paid was my NON-UNION roofer. I could not find a Union roofer that does housing.
Your case is flawed.

You must be one of the few exceptions out there. Most people look for a bargain and find it too.

My plumber replumbed my home in copper in two days with my help. The non-union bid was higher. In my book, cheaper is not always better in the long run. I like quality, and it has served me well.

 

[Jsup]

WTF is wrong with society? I want to know why I'm backing UAW pensions, bailout or not.

Let's get the facts straight, shall we?
It is a LOAN, not a gift.
FORD has said they have enough capital for 2 years. They also use the UAW, and don't seem to have the trouble that GM and Chrysler does.
IF GM had paid their "labor debt", and not their suppliers, we would not be having this discussion. BUT, they paid their "material suppliers", and not their "Labor debt." THIS was to focus BLAME away from management.
They have a "contract" with labor, just like they have one with their suppliers. IT was negotiated in good faith.
As for foregoing pensions, SS is not enough. Self funded pensions are needed. People are living longer, and need the income. They buden on society without it would be enormous.
Society has always helped the elders ever since the caveman gave the scraps to the old and sick. It's just human nature. It's what we do.
Perhaps Soyent Green is the answer.:smash:

A "loan".....do you REALLY believe it would be paid back. If it were such a good deal, where's all the private firms ready to pony up the money.

You can shift the chairs around on the deck, but the money is going to save the union. It is what it is. Call it what it is.

 

[big2bird]

Those who have no confidence in their ability and capability, lean on a union to make them successful.

I guess that would be me then.

I don't know if it is. If you are good at what you do, you'd be successful with or without a union, no?

Those who are great will rise to the top, the Union is holding them back. Those who aren't, get supported. It's a monolithic environment that treats all similarly.

Funny. You say a gallon of milk should be worth X$$, but labor is not.

I am truly sorry that the public feels this way about unions. We are just human too. I almost feel like a black sheep.

 

[big2bird]

WTF is wrong with society? I want to know why I'm backing UAW pensions, bailout or not.

Let's get the facts straight, shall we?
It is a LOAN, not a gift.
FORD has said they have enough capital for 2 years. They also use the UAW, and don't seem to have the trouble that GM and Chrysler does.
IF GM had paid their "labor debt", and not their suppliers, we would not be having this discussion. BUT, they paid their "material suppliers", and not their "Labor debt." THIS was to focus BLAME away from management.
They have a "contract" with labor, just like they have one with their suppliers. IT was negotiated in good faith.
As for foregoing pensions, SS is not enough. Self funded pensions are needed. People are living longer, and need the income. They buden on society without it would be enormous.
Society has always helped the elders ever since the caveman gave the scraps to the old and sick. It's just human nature. It's what we do.
Perhaps Soyent Green is the answer.:smash:

A "loan".....do you REALLY believe it would be paid back. If it were such a good deal, where's all the private firms ready to pony up the money.

You can shift the chairs around on the deck, but the money is going to save the union. It is what it is. Call it what it is.Sounds like WMD to me. Did you buy that one too?

Chrysler did it before, and paid it back EARLY with interest. Iacoca led them back. All they need is a new leader with foresight.

 

[DeeVeeEight]

I am not saying the unions are without merit, they were necessary after the industrial revolution, maybe some of them are past their prime and need to update their policies - I dunno.
There's no shame in being a Union Worker, if you are good then you have job security, that's how it should be, but when a Union backs some slob like I mentioned in an earlier post, well, it makes some of us wonder.

Let me ask all of you this....

If you were in charge, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? How would you make this pile of **** look like roses? Let's come up with some constructive ideas to save our economy. I am no financial genius but I have always been willing to get my ass up off of the sofa and work towards some positive end. It is why I have gotten this far. So lets HELP AMERICA (and the rest of the global economy) and come up with a plan that will work!

:beer::beer:

That's because this is going to take more than one beer!

 

[Jsup]

And they need to shed themselves of onerous union contracts.

I can't believe you could defend job banks, and a program which pays people not to work for 4 years.

 

[DeeVeeEight]

OK - Let's say you are the policy maker for GM/Chrysler/Ford.

How do you fix the ship you are in? Is it worth salvaging or is it better business to let it sink and invest in a sturdier craft? And let's not forget your "crew", what are they to do?

 

[mrvette]

OK - Let's say you are the policy maker for GM/Chrysler/Ford.

How do you fix the ship you are in? Is it worth salvaging or is it better business to let it sink and invest in a sturdier craft? And let's not forget your "crew", what are they to do?

Hire a nuclear physicist to figger it out....like they did for Wall street....

that fellow.....Neal Cash-Carry......that bald/shaved headed sinister/devilish looking guy they got for the 700 Billion bailout that's not working too well....

given the options I have seen I take option Z bottom of the list....


NONE OF THE ABOVE.......**** hurts, and it also happens....:bomb::crap:

bunch of ******* idiots running the show.....the whole God danm trainload from top to bottom needs FIRED as in yesterday....

the next band of ******* idiots could not do much worse......

the next guy here Nobam..he don't stand a snowball chance in hell of it going well for him,

Decades of complete abject and total lack of social, financial, trade, you name it IRRESPONSIBILITY on every part from Congress on down the list, to also include Wall street is nothing less than treason, for which the whole damn lot needs taken out back of the sewage plant and shot.....

that way the rotting bodies will not be noticed, as it's a **** pile anyway....

:crap::bomb::smash::thumbs:

 

[DeeVeeEight]

Gene - I can't say I disagree with you. There has been a lot of this asleep at the wheel **** going on for way too long. Bush can't wait for Jan. 20th as he wants to exit this mess quick fast and in a hurry, he has been a dumb ass chuckle head since day 1 in office.
Obama has a plate of **** being handed to him and it certainly is an impressive one at that. Given the severity of the situation I would be surprised if Obama can get us straightened out in 4 years.
Our economy is crumbling, our financial security and livelihoods are at serious risk, we need to take action. Hopefully our new leader has what it takes to get us back on track, the old one seemed hell bent on derailing us.
The next few months, possibly the next several years, are going to be VERY interesting times.
5:00 - time to watch the news unfold....

:beer:

 

[Jsup]

OK - Let's say you are the policy maker for GM/Chrysler/Ford.:

And pay him $150k A YEAR to do it. WHO in their right mind is going to take that job? How are you going to find someone who could actually do it.

Think about it....

Are you leaving a job that already pays $10MM to take on this sinking ship for $150K?

There are flaws all over the liberal argument as some have made here. Limit pay to $150K, yeah, that will wrok.

See how executives get paid what they do?

Here's the offer:

Leave your multi million dollar job

Take on this sinking ship and do it for $150K.

Oh, and if the ship finishes sinking, we're blaming you.

Yeah, that will happen.

 

[bobs77vet]

this entire issue is simple economics....greed + greed = failure....greed of labor unions + greed of management + a poor product = failure


really quite simple the labor unions have cooked their own goose and i really could care less...i think they should go into chapter 11 and get a dose of what reality really means......i believe in a market economy and there needs to be incentive to be smarter then the other guy....

 

[Jsup]

this entire issue is simple economics....greed + greed = failure....greed of labor unions + greed of management + a poor product = failure


really quite simple the labor unions have cooked their own goose and i really could care less...i think they should go into chapter 11 and get a dose of what reality really means......i believe in a market economy and there needs to be incentive to be smarter then the other guy....

I completely agree. But the scale and scope of the greed from the unions is FAR more than anything the management did.

Managment costs is like .40 a car

Unions is $3000 a car.

Although true that its' the same, it's not equal. The scale of the union greed in absolute dollars is staggering compared to all management salary and perks.

 

[bobs77vet]

the response is the same .......chapter 11

 

[redvetracr]

It was just reported that the unions raised $400 MILLION for the dems in the last election....so I ask you who do you think the dems work for?? you and me or the unions? this is just the first of many bailouts for the UAW....errrr I mean GM.

 

[mrvette]

WELL, actually we COULD find someone to do it....easy....

just slash all the other salaries, starting with

LAWYERS, CPA's, investment 'counselors', BANKERS, agents, LAWYERS, influence peddlers, Mafia types, loan sharks, LAWYERS....

and cut the budget supporting illegals....

:cussing::cussing:

 

[Jsup]

It was just reported that the unions raised $400 MILLION for the dems in the last election....so I ask you who do you think the dems work for?? you and me or the unions? this is just the first of many bailouts for the UAW....errrr I mean GM.

Any coincidence that the dems are pushing for the bailout?

 

[BBShark]

It was just reported that the unions raised $400 MILLION for the dems in the last election....so I ask you who do you think the dems work for?? you and me or the unions? this is just the first of many bailouts for the UAW....errrr I mean GM.

Bingo! This debate is really a moot point.

Look at how the UAW contributed in the 2008 elections:

2008
Democratic Party - $1,889,265 (99%)
Republican Party - $10,250 (1%)

I don't think the car companies will be formulating any re-organization plans that include union concessions to present to congress!

 

[bobs77vet]

politicians are whores.......its what can you do for me next.....that matters

 

[mrvette]

politicians are LAWYER whores.......its what can you do for me next.....that matters

There, fixed it 4 U.....

I have stated before, and continue to think that ALL lawyers, as occifers of the courts, can NOT hold ANY public office, including judges, under conflict of interest laws....they MAY serve as UNPAID consultants for drafting legislation, that is ALL......

:amazed:

 

[big2bird]

I can't believe you could defend job banks

Maybe because I am IN one?

 

[Jsup]

I can't believe you could defend job banks

Maybe because I am IN one?

Serious?

So then why should the taxpayers support you getting paid for not working?

I have never seen a bigger scam.

 

[big2bird]

I can't believe you could defend job banks

Maybe because I am IN one?

Serious?

So then why should the taxpayers support you getting paid for not working?

I have never seen a bigger scam.

I don't get paid when I am not working. WTF are you talking about?

 

[Jsup]

Job banks...$77 an hour for not working. 12.000 of them. By my math that's $924,000 per hour, or $1,848,000,000 a year. Those dam executives and their pay is the problem.


http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/uaw-job-bank-not-gone-yet-but-its-almost-gone/

The UAW’s controversial job bank program has been widely floated as a possible concession, and apparently Gettelfinger wants folks to know that GM isn’t paying his union brothers $77/hr to do nothing. “It’s not gone yet but it’s almost gone,” Gettelfinger tells the Detroit News. “We’re on the verge of eliminating that provision.”

http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2008/12/uaw_agreement_to_kill_jobs_ban.html

"The jobs bank has become a sound bite that people use to beat us up," Gettelfinger said at a news conference in Detroit.WAYNE -- Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.

"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

WAYNE -- Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.

"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."

But paying employees not to work is a concept that is foreign to most outside of Michigan's automotive corridors.

How many more do you want?

 

[big2bird]

Okay, I am not in that sort of job bank. I can see how it got started though.

Like any rule with good intent, people look for the loophole and abuse it. Kinda like 7 corporate jets.

Union labor has been giving concessions for years, while management salaries have been going thru the roof.

How do you explain FORD not needing any money, while they use the same workers?:goodevil:

 

[mrvette]

Okay, I am not in that sort of job bank. I can see how it got started though.

Like any rule with good intent, people look for the loophole and abuse it. Kinda like 7 corporate jets.

Union labor has been giving concessions for years, while management salaries have been going thru the roof.

How do you explain FORD not needing any money, while they use the same workers?:goodevil:

See another thread about that one....I think it's here....

FORD family still controls FMC.....Ch/GM are not owned by any particular family I know of NOW....

used to be, decades ago...

:amazed:

 

[Jsup]

Okay, I am not in that sort of job bank. I can see how it got started though.

Like any rule with good intent, people look for the loophole and abuse it. Kinda like 7 corporate jets.

Union labor has been giving concessions for years, while management salaries have been going thru the roof.

How do you explain FORD not needing any money, while they use the same workers?:goodevil:

OK, what's bigger? 7 corporate jets or $1,848,000,000?

Who said Ford is doing great? They are only a few minutes behind. They aren't exactly thriving.