Rear spoilers

[redvetracr]

I disagree with the first bolded sentence. Anybody who has a choice to run a wing vs a spoiler (F1, Indycar, LeMans prototypes, WoO, etc) all run a wing. A wing in high clean air is more efficient than a spoiler on a rear deck immersed in dirty turbulent air.

what do they run in NASCAR?[/QUOTE]

They run what the rules mandate. Innovation or revolutionary changes are restricted in these cookie cutter looking cars.[/QUOTE]


yea not exactly. they tried wings, they didn`t work and NASCAR went back to spoilers

 

[redvetracr]

It`s doubtful in my mind that that silver thing goes fast enough to need all those ricer bolt on`s, ..............

I disagree. There is no speed threshold where aero suddenly "kicks in".

While any benefits are obviously greater at higher speeds, they are not null at lower speeds.

maybe but there is a speed where aero makes a real noticeable difference, and I doubt you or that silver thing has been there...

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Watching the TDF riders cruise at 25mph in a tight formation is impressive.
From that position, drafting is effective from as little as 10mph and I can
really feel it at 15mph.

I remember a record holding boat racer telling me the scoop only works after
60mph.

I'm guessing a small spoiler vs. full body drag takes much more speed to see a difference?



R

the fastest a "normal" (not recumbant) for unassistant speed on a bicycle is: 45-55mph
fastest recumbant (unassisted) is 81 mph

fastest assisted (I used to do this, it's a blast) happens at velodromes (bike race tracks) where a motorcycle paces you... there the top speed is 120 mph.... yes, aero matters a lot

 

[69427]

I disagree with the first bolded sentence. Anybody who has a choice to run a wing vs a spoiler (F1, Indycar, LeMans prototypes, WoO, etc) all run a wing. A wing in high clean air is more efficient than a spoiler on a rear deck immersed in dirty turbulent air.

what do they run in NASCAR?

They run what the rules mandate. Innovation or revolutionary changes are restricted in these cookie cutter looking cars.[/QUOTE]


yea not exactly. they tried wings, they didn`t work and NASCAR went back to spoilers[/QUOTE]

They installed NASCAR-spec mandated wings that were what, four inches off the rear deck? Do you really think that 30 independent teams looking to be faster than anyone else would all arrive at the same identical design (a wing four inches off the deck)? No serious aero person would choose to do that. The COT wing sounds like just more silliness from the NASCAR boardroom.

Would you put a wing four inches off the deck?

 

[69427]

It`s doubtful in my mind that that silver thing goes fast enough to need all those ricer bolt on`s, ..............

I disagree. There is no speed threshold where aero suddenly "kicks in".

While any benefits are obviously greater at higher speeds, they are not null at lower speeds.

maybe but there is a speed where aero makes a real noticeable difference, and I doubt you or that silver thing has been there...

You have no clue how fast, or what kind of cars I've driven. (FWIW I have first hand experience with the aero/handling difference between a non-winged and a winged sprint car. Night and day difference.) And there's no maybe about aero. It's physics and there's no formula that has a velocity constant stating there's noticeable aero effects above that speed, and unnoticeable aero effects below that speed.

Two can play the ******* game here Howard, and I've had plenty of caffeine this afternoon. If you want to talk facts, physics, or engineering, I'm all ears. Or if you prefer to play the game, I'm here too.

 

[DJ Dep]

It`s doubtful in my mind that that silver thing goes fast enough to need all those ricer bolt on`s, ..............

I disagree. There is no speed threshold where aero suddenly "kicks in".

While any benefits are obviously greater at higher speeds, they are not null at lower speeds.

Actually, you are incorrect. There IS a threshold speed where aero kicks in. And newsflash, but it ain't travelling at any legal speed limit in the USA. So most of those wings and spoilers and flippers you see on the backs of ricers and racer wannabes on the street are strictly bling.

 

[69427]

It`s doubtful in my mind that that silver thing goes fast enough to need all those ricer bolt on`s, ..............

I disagree. There is no speed threshold where aero suddenly "kicks in".

While any benefits are obviously greater at higher speeds, they are not null at lower speeds.

Actually, you are incorrect. There IS a threshold speed where aero kicks in. And newsflash, but it ain't travelling at any legal speed limit in the USA. So most of those wings and spoilers and flippers you see on the backs of ricers and racer wannabes on the street are strictly bling.

Care to quote that speed and the formulas to support that claim?

 

[phantomjock]

So aero doesn't "work" at low speed?

There IS a threshold speed where aero kicks in. And newsflash, but it ain't travelling at any legal speed limit in the USA.

Kinda makes me wonder all about my low and slow Hang Glider. It seemed to work just fine. I didn't set any speed records though. :clap:

Cheers - Jim

 

[redvetracr]

[/QUOTE]

You have no clue how fast, or what kind of cars I've driven. (FWIW I have first hand experience with the aero/handling difference between a non-winged and a winged sprint car. Night and day difference.) And there's no maybe about aero. It's physics and there's no formula that has a velocity constant stating there's noticeable aero effects above that speed, and unnoticeable aero effects below that speed.

Two can play the ******* game here Howard, and I've had plenty of caffeine this afternoon. If you want to talk facts, physics, or engineering, I'm all ears. Or if you prefer to play the game, I'm here too.[/QUOTE]


a winged sprint car weights how much? has tires how wide? has what 850-900hp? and a wing on top the size of a roof and you want to compare that to a Corvette? which is the apple and which the orange?

 

[DJ Dep]

It`s doubtful in my mind that that silver thing goes fast enough to need all those ricer bolt on`s, ..............

I disagree. There is no speed threshold where aero suddenly "kicks in".

While any benefits are obviously greater at higher speeds, they are not null at lower speeds.

Actually, you are incorrect. There IS a threshold speed where aero kicks in. And newsflash, but it ain't travelling at any legal speed limit in the USA. So most of those wings and spoilers and flippers you see on the backs of ricers and racer wannabes on the street are strictly bling.

Care to quote that speed and the formulas to support that claim?

http://www.torquecars.com/tuning/spoiler-aerodynamics.php

Formulas are in this discussion. :
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/honda/1424/What-does-a-spoiler-do

 

[DJ Dep]

So aero doesn't "work" at low speed?

There IS a threshold speed where aero kicks in. And newsflash, but it ain't travelling at any legal speed limit in the USA.

Kinda makes me wonder all about my low and slow Hang Glider. It seemed to work just fine. I didn't set any speed records though. :clap:

Cheers - Jim

We are talking about CARS. Not crazy people that jump off roofs. :crylol:

 

[rtj]

Viper ACR is a street car running big wings, so I found a Motor Trend article:


First Drive: 2009 Dodge Viper ACR
Jurassic Lark: With 8.4 liters and overhead valves up front, the Viper ACR seems to be an old-school supercar. Until you drive it.

Most of the time, effort, and development dollars have been spent on stuff that makes the ACR go faster through the twisty bits-suspension, brakes, wheels and tires, and aerodynamics. Especially the aerodynamics. Just chew on this for a moment: At 150 mph, the regular Viper coupe generates 100 pounds of downforce; at the same speed, the Viper ACR generates 1000 pounds of downforce.


That giant carbon-fiber rear wing is the most obvious reason why. But there's also a new carbon-fiber front splitter that extends way back under the car and incorporates seven steps to diffuse the airflow. The new hood louvers unveiled with the 600-horsepower engine upgrade a year ago play a part, too. "We knew we were going to do a new ACR, so we moved the louvers forward to help change the aero balance of the car," says SRT boss Herb Helbig.


Squeeze on the power and feel the forces build. Feel, too, the aerodynamics squeezing the car down onto the track, keeping everything eerily calm. Helbig claims the wings 'n' things work from as low as 50 mph, and on fast sweepers the Viper engineers have seen a sustained 1.5g lateral grip. At 120 mph through Willow's long Turn 8 the downforce was like a giant hand, settling the car over a mid-corner bump that has machinery like 911s and M3 CSLs feeling a bit squirrelly.

 

[turtlevette]

At 150 mph, the regular Viper coupe generates 100 pounds of downforce; at the same speed, the Viper ACR generates 1000 pounds of downforce.

Who takes corners at 150? I think the bottom line is the disgusting look of that huge wing vs the help it provides.

Those huge wings turn my stomach. I guess if you could do one that quickly detaches and use it just for racing.

 

[mrvette]

At 150 mph, the regular Viper coupe generates 100 pounds of downforce; at the same speed, the Viper ACR generates 1000 pounds of downforce.

Who takes corners at 150? I think the bottom line is the disgusting look of that huge wing vs the help it provides.

Those huge wings turn my stomach. I guess if you could do one that quickly detaches and use it just for racing.

:shocking: Good GOD, I agree with TV?? :shocking:

 

[MYBAD79]

At 150 mph, the regular Viper coupe generates 100 pounds of downforce; at the same speed, the Viper ACR generates 1000 pounds of downforce.

Who takes corners at 150? I think the bottom line is the disgusting look of that huge wing vs the help it provides.

Those huge wings turn my stomach. I guess if you could do one that quickly detaches and use it just for racing.

isn't the look just based on personal opinion? the downforce it creates is based on facts and physics..... if it creates 10x the downforce at 150 mph it sure does a pretty good job at lower speeds too....
now, while I agree that thing is buttugly .... I'd rather go fast around a track in a ugly car than slow in a pretty car

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

At 150 mph, the regular Viper coupe generates 100 pounds of downforce; at the same speed, the Viper ACR generates 1000 pounds of downforce.

Who takes corners at 150? I think the bottom line is the disgusting look of that huge wing vs the help it provides.

Those huge wings turn my stomach. I guess if you could do one that quickly detaches and use it just for racing.

the car looks even uglier as it slides off the track and into the wall :1st:

and honestly, give me one valid reason why I should care about your tastes.... just one.:search:

Perhaps you can do a search and see what my response was to someone who told me I should sell the vette and buy a miata to go racing.... the same advice given that poster would apply quite equally to you...

 

[turtlevette]

the car looks even uglier as it slides off the track and into the wall :1st:

and honestly, give me one valid reason why I should care about your tastes.... just one.:search:

super buick guy my ass, you'd run a grand national if you were serous instead of some old pos collector.

There in lies a basic difference between you and I.

Karston, The downforce is a nonlinear function. That's why the data point is at 150 to look really good. I challenge you to find any track where a weekend driver can take what's basically a street car through a corner at 100 much less 150.

Howard may be a gruff SOB but he's always right.

 

[turtlevette]

It`s doubtful in my mind that that silver thing goes fast enough to need all those ricer bolt on`s, ..............

I disagree. There is no speed threshold where aero suddenly "kicks in".

It's called a knee point on a non-linear function. Even a half assed engineer knows that.

 

[rtj]

At 150 mph, the regular Viper coupe generates 100 pounds of downforce; at the same speed, the Viper ACR generates 1000 pounds of downforce.

Who takes corners at 150? I think the bottom line is the disgusting look of that huge wing vs the help it provides.

Those huge wings turn my stomach. I guess if you could do one that quickly detaches and use it just for racing.

Sorry, but if I were to get a new car right now it would be either a ZR1 or an ACR.

Heck, I saw a mini Cooper the other day with a wing and splitter. It was probably a college kid. It looked pretty good and probably safer than what I drove in H. School (340 Duster). At least the ACR is 600HP (respectable).

 

[MYBAD79]

Heck, I saw a mini Cooper the other day with a wing and splitter. It was probably a college kid. It looked pretty good and probably safer than what I drove in H. School (340 Duster). At least the ACR is 600HP (respectable).

That Mini at Waterford ? I almost exhaled my coffee thru my nose when I saw that LOL

 

[MYBAD79]

Perhaps you can do a search and see what my response was to someone who told me I should sell the vette and buy a miata to go racing.... the same advice given that poster would apply quite equally to you...

Who exactly told you that you should sell the vette? It was suggested you just get another better suited car for track days (AutoX) in addition to what you have .... so what's the big deal here?

http://vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8511&highlight=miata+track&page=4

 

[DJ Dep]

the car looks even uglier as it slides off the track and into the wall :1st:

and honestly, give me one valid reason why I should care about your tastes.... just one.:search:

super buick guy my ass, you'd run a grand national if you were serous instead of some old pos collector.

There in lies a basic difference between you and I.

Karston, The downforce is a nonlinear function. That's why the data point is at 150 to look really good. I challenge you to find any track where a weekend driver can take what's basically a street car through a corner at 100 much less 150.

Howard may be a gruff SOB but he's always right.

Just a side note...but I heard the Indy cars have so much downforce that they could drive upside down in a tunnel with no problemo. I suggest anyone that installs a ricerwing test theirs out that way.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Perhaps you can do a search and see what my response was to someone who told me I should sell the vette and buy a miata to go racing.... the same advice given that poster would apply quite equally to you...

Who exactly told you that you should sell the vette? It was suggested you just get another better suited car for track days (AutoX) in addition to what you have .... so what's the big deal here?

http://vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8511&highlight=miata+track&page=4

post 31 on that link

 

[rtj]

Heck, I saw a mini Cooper the other day with a wing and splitter. It was probably a college kid. It looked pretty good and probably safer than what I drove in H. School (340 Duster). At least the ACR is 600HP (respectable).

That Mini at Waterford ? I almost exhaled my coffee thru my nose when I saw that LOL

That's probably the same one I saw, parked Five Guys. The one I saw was nicely done. Not for me, but to each his own.

 

[mrvette]

Just a side note...but I heard the Indy cars have so much downforce that they could drive upside down in a tunnel with no problemo. I suggest anyone that installs a ricerwing test theirs out that way.

:hissyfit::nuts::3rd::clobbered::nuts:

THAT is funny as hell, I'm setting here in tears now, spilled my damn drink....

:bounce:

 

[mrvette]

Perhaps you can do a search and see what my response was to someone who told me I should sell the vette and buy a miata to go racing.... the same advice given that poster would apply quite equally to you...

Who exactly told you that you should sell the vette? It was suggested you just get another better suited car for track days (AutoX) in addition to what you have .... so what's the big deal here?

http://vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8511&highlight=miata+track&page=4

post 31 on that link

And here I am, with my beloved old girl friend the shark, so gets as much attention as my legal wife, and my wife has a '91 Miata parked right nest to it.....and I drive her Miata, manual steering and automatic quite frequently too, hate it with the top up, me way too tall....but the car itself is a blast to drive, not as much as my vette, but still WAY fun.....


:hissyfit::bounce:

 

[MYBAD79]

Heck, I saw a mini Cooper the other day with a wing and splitter. It was probably a college kid. It looked pretty good and probably safer than what I drove in H. School (340 Duster). At least the ACR is 600HP (respectable).

That Mini at Waterford ? I almost exhaled my coffee thru my nose when I saw that LOL

That's probably the same one I saw, parked Five Guys. The one I saw was nicely done. Not for me, but to each his own.

I snapped a photo with my phone..... I agree, to each his own, it sure is not my cup of tea

 

[phantomjock]

Here's one way to deal with "low q."
High thickness to chord ratio - and add some high incidence (negative here) to take advantage of that large flap!


Sure 'taint purdy. But gotta be effective.
Form does follow function.
{hmmm - isn't that an interesting sentence we always choose? But logically it is written the other way 'round!}

Cheers - Jim

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

has anyone done aero testing on a flat back window vette? more specifically, does the spoiler need to be above the roofline, or would a 80 up deck spoiler be as effective?

And yes, I do plan on up to 180 mph speeds.... and a sign on the back of my car that says "if this car is on a trailer, please call the police because it's being stolen"


Remove the spoiler? okay, where would you store it to get it to the track?

 

[rtj]

has anyone done aero testing on a flat back window vette? more specifically, does the spoiler need to be above the roofline, or would a 80 up deck spoiler be as effective?

And yes, I do plan on up to 180 mph speeds.... and a sign on the back of my car that says "if this car is on a trailer, please call the police because it's being sot
Remove the spoiler? okay, where would you store it to get it to the track?

If you are serious about it, this is what I'd do with a flat back window vette.

Make a smoke generator, cigar, pressure tank, sch 40 pipe, and some tubing. Drive down the interstate and bleed smoke into the airstream. Try to find the undisturbed air. That's the height I'd mount the wing.

In wind tunnels they use smoke wands that run on 120v and burn skywriter oil.