UAW wages to blame?

[Jsup]

"They fired the factory workers and I didn't speak up....."

Companies don't exist for the benefit of the workers, it's the other way around.

Actually, ideally, it is a symbiosis. One CANNOT exist without the other.

To a point. Automation can take care of that. The difference is, owners/management hold the keys, not workers. Not without extortion.

 

[DeeVeeEight]

Pensoins are dinosaurs. THey should be killed and the taxpayer should not back them.

Tell my why I should have to pay SS I"ll never see, back a pension that I don't get, and still save for my own retirement. Yep, as a private sector working stiff I get to take care of everyone else before I get to take care of myself and my family. Nice huh?

Please, show me how you justify that.[/QUOTE]

I have to agree with you Jsup, we are in the same boat. I resent paying up to 33% federal income tax while at the same time I can not afford to provide myself with health insurance. My tax dollars help to pay some welfare slut stay home, watch TV, do drugs and support an illegal boyfriend, provide her and her offspring with food, clothing, shelter and health benefits - and we get nothing from her in return - except more dependent offspring. We have provided these people with a free ride and they do not know any other way. Hell - would you if given such a package? There is little incentive for them to become self sufficient, there are no jobs for them that would raise them above their present standard of living.... So we support them, carry them on our backs.
I woke up today and listened to the news talk about how the big 3 got shot down for their bail out and at the same time they said that the banks would not loan money to the big 3 because IT IS A BAD INVESTMENT. They said that the people are being asked to do what the banks will not do - and for a good reason - IT IS BAD BUSINESS. So YES the economy will suffer and jobs will be lost. We need a new business strategy for the auto industry - I do not have the answers. I am having a hard enough time managing my little handyman business and staying afloat. The only reason I have time to voice my opinion here today is because my business if off well over 50% and I am not working today! I have been feeling this down turn in our economy for over a year.
As much as I know that failing to keep the big 3 afloat will negatively affect my earning potential in the near future I still feel that they need to stand or fall on their own just like the rest of us. It pisses me off knowing that I struggle to stay afloat and go without some niceties so that I can stay HONEST and stay in business while the rest of the world goes to hell in a hand basket, then goes and gets bailed out for FAILING. I am not rewarded for failing. I have tried several times over the years to start my own business and failed before I got to where I am today. I made it on my own and if I fail I fail on my own, there will not be anyone there, especially my government, to reward me if I fail. I would not expect them to.

 

[DeeVeeEight]

Tell my why I should have to pay SS I"ll never see, back a pension that I don't get, and still save for my own retirement. Yep, as a private sector working stiff I get to take care of everyone else before I get to take care of myself and my family. Nice huh?

You don't. You can move your business to Bangladesh.

Don't think that we are not tempted to look at other countries as a place to live and prosper when our own country is such a mess. I might not choose Bangladesh as you so nicely suggested, but if things keep on this way Bangladesh might actually start to look good!

 

[Jsup]

I have to agree with you Jsup, we are in the same boat. I resent paying up to 33% federal income tax while at the same time I can not afford to provide myself with health insurance. My tax dollars help to pay some welfare slut stay home, watch TV, do drugs and support an illegal boyfriend, provide her and her offspring with food, clothing, shelter and health benefits - and we get nothing from her in return - except more dependent offspring. We have provided these people with a free ride and they do not know any other way. Hell - would you if given such a package? There is little incentive for them to become self sufficient, there are no jobs for them that would raise them above their present standard of living.... So we support them, carry them on our backs.
I woke up today and listened to the news talk about how the big 3 got shot down for their bail out and at the same time they said that the banks would not loan money to the big 3 because IT IS A BAD INVESTMENT. They said that the people are being asked to do what the banks will not do - and for a good reason - IT IS BAD BUSINESS. So YES the economy will suffer and jobs will be lost. We need a new business strategy for the auto industry - I do not have the answers. I am having a hard enough time managing my little handyman business and staying afloat. The only reason I have time to voice my opinion here today is because my business if off well over 50% and I am not working today! I have been feeling this down turn in our economy for over a year.
As much as I know that failing to keep the big 3 afloat will negatively affect my earning potential in the near future I still feel that they need to stand or fall on their own just like the rest of us. It pisses me off knowing that I struggle to stay afloat and go without some niceties so that I can stay HONEST and stay in business while the rest of the world goes to hell in a hand basket, then goes and gets bailed out for FAILING. I am not rewarded for failing. I have tried several times over the years to start my own business and failed before I got to where I am today. I made it on my own and if I fail I fail on my own, there will not be anyone there, especially my government, to reward me if I fail. I would not expect them to.

And, doesn't it suck when people call YOU selfish for taking that position? WTF is wrong with society? I want to know why I'm backing UAW pensions, bailout or not.

 

[Jsup]

Hey, anyone see the news report this morning about the guy who hasn't worked in 4 years, yet GM had to pay him full salary and benefits. All he had to do was show up once a week and he had to get paid. Oh, and BTW, he worked another full time job the whole time.

I don't car what you say about executive salaries, they amount to NOTHING compared to this kind of abuse.

All you have to know about unions is this:

When a union guy does work on his house, does he hire union people at union wages, under union rules..... Why not?

I rest my case.

 

[DeeVeeEight]

I am sure that if I were an auto worker my attitude would be different, but I am not.
I worked for a union for a short while - did not like what I saw, dangerous drunks getting their jobs back on an assembly line after being fired - bastard put us all at risk. Later the company was sold and the new owners announced to the workers that they were not honoring the retirement packages because they did not agree to them when they bought the place. Some of those people were there for 30 years..... That was when I decided I needed to be master of my own fate instead of trusting some high paid POS to look out for me.

I have been self employed for over 10 years now - and yes, my financial security is at risk like so many other Americans. If my work does not pick up soon I will be at risk of foreclosure on my home, it is all I have as far as my retirement security is concerned, the equity in my home. If I lose that I lose everything that I have worked for and will be out on the streets. There will be no government bail out for me, no unemployment insurance, no welfare. That's just the way it is. Tough shit on me.

It's almost 12:00 here, time to turn on the news and see how bad things are.

:beer:

 

[Jsup]

That was when I decided I needed to be master of my own fate instead of trusting some high paid POS to look out for me.
:

that about sums it up. Those who have no confidence in their ability and capability, lean on a union to make them successful.

 

[mrvette]

All I can say is that with MY small remodeling business,....I am SO happy I went and did a reverse mortgage on this house back last MAY, that if I had not, we'd be on the streets now.....500/month going out of my lousey 933/month SS check would have killed us.....Linda, God Bless her, has this little book keeping business and online editing, so works outta the house here, our gas bills dropped greatly over this year.....thankfully she quit that overnight driving crap for UPS and that other delivery company....her last run was in Jan/Feb this year before the fuel prices really went nutz.....

Talk about dodging bullets when we HAVE to.....unable to see many others though....

one thing....NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES HAVE ANY BUSINESS PARTNERS......PERIOD......

 

[big2bird]

Those who have no confidence in their ability and capability, lean on a union to make them successful.

I guess that would be me then.

 

[big2bird]

All you have to know about unions is this:

When a union guy does work on his house, does he hire union people at union wages, under union rules..... Why not?

I rest my case.

Actually, I have used Union Electricians, Carpenters, and a Plumber to work on my house. The largest per hour paid was my NON-UNION roofer. I could not find a Union roofer that does housing.
Your case is flawed.

 

[DeeVeeEight]

Hey, anyone see the news report this morning about the guy who hasn't worked in 4 years, yet GM had to pay him full salary and benefits. All he had to do was show up once a week and he had to get paid. Oh, and BTW, he worked another full time job the whole time.

I don't car what you say about executive salaries, they amount to NOTHING compared to this kind of abuse.

All you have to know about unions is this:

When a union guy does work on his house, does he hire union people at union wages, under union rules..... Why not?

I rest my case.

Here in NJ I am required to be licensed to perform home improvements by the NJ Division of Consumer Affairs. They make sure that I am registered, insured and paying my sales and use tax BUT they do not have any people in place to prevent unlicensed contractors from performing work. My costs are higher than a non licensed competitor - what am I supposed to do?
The other thing that is wrong with our NJ home improvement licensing system is that if I decide to "turn in" a suspected unlicensed contractor I am treated like a pain in the ass by the powers that be - go figure..... There is no justice for the honest!
Sorry - I know it is not exactly related but I had to get that one off my chest.

I can not afford to hire Union carpenters or painters, I can barely get by as it is. Government taxes me to death on my income, on my property (10 k per year) on what I spend (7% sales tax) and they keep wanting more. The IRS wants to audit me :crapI HAVE NO FUCKING MONEY GUYS! GO FISHING SOMEWHERE ELSE). I am getting older and more tired, I have less fight in me. Pretty soon I am going to have to close my doors and just hand the keys for all my property (except the 'Vette) over to my beloved government.:surrender:

So no - I have no sympathy for the banks, the automakers and the rest. Call me unpatriotic or unAmerican if you want, I am too worn out and have seen too much lopsided shit to care.

:beer:

 

[DeeVeeEight]

All you have to know about unions is this:

When a union guy does work on his house, does he hire union people at union wages, under union rules..... Why not?

I rest my case.

Actually, I have used Union Electricians, Carpenters, and a Plumber to work on my house. The largest per hour paid was my NON-UNION roofer. I could not find a Union roofer that does housing.
Your case is flawed.

You must be one of the few exceptions out there. Most people look for a bargain and find it too.

 

[big2bird]

WTF is wrong with society? I want to know why I'm backing UAW pensions, bailout or not.

Let's get the facts straight, shall we?
It is a LOAN, not a gift.
FORD has said they have enough capital for 2 years. They also use the UAW, and don't seem to have the trouble that GM and Chrysler does.
IF GM had paid their "labor debt", and not their suppliers, we would not be having this discussion. BUT, they paid their "material suppliers", and not their "Labor debt." THIS was to focus BLAME away from management.
They have a "contract" with labor, just like they have one with their suppliers. IT was negotiated in good faith.
As for foregoing pensions, SS is not enough. Self funded pensions are needed. People are living longer, and need the income. The buden on society without it would be enormous.
Society has always helped the elders ever since the caveman gave the scraps to the old and sick. It's just human nature. It's what we do.
Perhaps Soyent Green is the answer.:smash:

 

[Jsup]

Those who have no confidence in their ability and capability, lean on a union to make them successful.

I guess that would be me then.

I don't know if it is. If you are good at what you do, you'd be successful with or without a union, no?

Those who are great will rise to the top, the Union is holding them back. Those who aren't, get supported. It's a monolithic environment that treats all similarly.

 

[big2bird]

All you have to know about unions is this:

When a union guy does work on his house, does he hire union people at union wages, under union rules..... Why not?

I rest my case.

Actually, I have used Union Electricians, Carpenters, and a Plumber to work on my house. The largest per hour paid was my NON-UNION roofer. I could not find a Union roofer that does housing.
Your case is flawed.

You must be one of the few exceptions out there. Most people look for a bargain and find it too.

My plumber replumbed my home in copper in two days with my help. The non-union bid was higher. In my book, cheaper is not always better in the long run. I like quality, and it has served me well.

 

[Jsup]

WTF is wrong with society? I want to know why I'm backing UAW pensions, bailout or not.

Let's get the facts straight, shall we?
It is a LOAN, not a gift.
FORD has said they have enough capital for 2 years. They also use the UAW, and don't seem to have the trouble that GM and Chrysler does.
IF GM had paid their "labor debt", and not their suppliers, we would not be having this discussion. BUT, they paid their "material suppliers", and not their "Labor debt." THIS was to focus BLAME away from management.
They have a "contract" with labor, just like they have one with their suppliers. IT was negotiated in good faith.
As for foregoing pensions, SS is not enough. Self funded pensions are needed. People are living longer, and need the income. They buden on society without it would be enormous.
Society has always helped the elders ever since the caveman gave the scraps to the old and sick. It's just human nature. It's what we do.
Perhaps Soyent Green is the answer.:smash:

A "loan".....do you REALLY believe it would be paid back. If it were such a good deal, where's all the private firms ready to pony up the money.

You can shift the chairs around on the deck, but the money is going to save the union. It is what it is. Call it what it is.

 

[big2bird]

Those who have no confidence in their ability and capability, lean on a union to make them successful.

I guess that would be me then.

I don't know if it is. If you are good at what you do, you'd be successful with or without a union, no?

Those who are great will rise to the top, the Union is holding them back. Those who aren't, get supported. It's a monolithic environment that treats all similarly.

Funny. You say a gallon of milk should be worth X$$, but labor is not.

I am truly sorry that the public feels this way about unions. We are just human too. I almost feel like a black sheep.

 

[big2bird]

WTF is wrong with society? I want to know why I'm backing UAW pensions, bailout or not.

Let's get the facts straight, shall we?
It is a LOAN, not a gift.
FORD has said they have enough capital for 2 years. They also use the UAW, and don't seem to have the trouble that GM and Chrysler does.
IF GM had paid their "labor debt", and not their suppliers, we would not be having this discussion. BUT, they paid their "material suppliers", and not their "Labor debt." THIS was to focus BLAME away from management.
They have a "contract" with labor, just like they have one with their suppliers. IT was negotiated in good faith.
As for foregoing pensions, SS is not enough. Self funded pensions are needed. People are living longer, and need the income. They buden on society without it would be enormous.
Society has always helped the elders ever since the caveman gave the scraps to the old and sick. It's just human nature. It's what we do.
Perhaps Soyent Green is the answer.:smash:

A "loan".....do you REALLY believe it would be paid back. If it were such a good deal, where's all the private firms ready to pony up the money.

You can shift the chairs around on the deck, but the money is going to save the union. It is what it is. Call it what it is.Sounds like WMD to me. Did you buy that one too?

Chrysler did it before, and paid it back EARLY with interest. Iacoca led them back. All they need is a new leader with foresight.

 

[DeeVeeEight]

I am not saying the unions are without merit, they were necessary after the industrial revolution, maybe some of them are past their prime and need to update their policies - I dunno.
There's no shame in being a Union Worker, if you are good then you have job security, that's how it should be, but when a Union backs some slob like I mentioned in an earlier post, well, it makes some of us wonder.

Let me ask all of you this....

If you were in charge, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? How would you make this pile of shit look like roses? Let's come up with some constructive ideas to save our economy. I am no financial genius but I have always been willing to get my ass up off of the sofa and work towards some positive end. It is why I have gotten this far. So lets HELP AMERICA (and the rest of the global economy) and come up with a plan that will work!

:beer::beer:

That's because this is going to take more than one beer!

 

[Jsup]

And they need to shed themselves of onerous union contracts.

I can't believe you could defend job banks, and a program which pays people not to work for 4 years.