Plastic Fantastic 2

[phantomjock]

You mentioned "speed" and not Lap-time. There are several different ways to get both - some not the same solution set. I'll address Speed now.
Do you want:

Something quick and easy, or
Something with growth potential, or
Something that integrates video and data real time, or
Something that provides real-time telemetry, data. and video to the pit?​

Lowest investment for most payback, is probably what we all look for.

I did a deep dive on these a while back and will look for my spread sheet. But I'll offer the following.
If all you want/need is speed information real-time a GPS-speedometer with a HUD would be real-time. Integrate that (internally between the ears) with an Apexpro to get real-time tire-slip and "G-available." You just moved up your data utility, but also your processing. Apexpro is under $500 as I recall. GPS with HUD ~ eBay under $50.
Focus a video camera on your line of sight and include the GPS Speed and Apexpro in the view and you have post processing available. Could be a cheapie - or pick something that has growth potential. AIM, GoPro are maybe the standouts. Something purpose-built and hard mounted to a roll cage beats a phone flying around the cockpit.

More expensive items AIM, MO-TEC, Race-Technology (my favorite), RaceCapture Pro. There are phone apps, and some stand-alone lap-timers. I'll look for the xls file some. Hope I still have it...

BTW - The APEXPRO would be helpful in real-time assessment of the front suspension changes. Hit a corner at the same speed, turn-in point, see the g-available.

Cheers - Jim

 

[phantomjock]

I "melted down" the chart above with the various C3 front settings. Not necessarily a C5+ (I'll look - but if someone has a link that helps). BUT, it shows the range of values for Caster/Toe/Camber -- on a C3.




Your mileage may vary.
Cheers - Jim

Rear numbers as I find some time.

 

[phantomjock]

Data ACQ

Found it!
I'll post later (today?), in a separate thread.
Will pass along here when its up.

May take a bit to bring up to speed

Cheers - Jim

ADDED - Apexpro has a post race processing and "sharing" stuff available- but that app is Apple only - so I don't use it. Their web site has some good videos and heaps of YT. Not a saleman - just use/like.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

You mentioned "speed" and not Lap-time. There are several different ways to get both - some not the same solution set. I'll address Speed now.
Do you want:

Something quick and easy, or
Something with growth potential, or
Something that integrates video and data real time, or
Something that provides real-time telemetry, data. and video to the pit?​

Lowest investment for most payback, is probably what we all look for.

I did a deep dive on these a while back and will look for my spread sheet. But I'll offer the following.
If all you want/need is speed information real-time a GPS-speedometer with a HUD would be real-time. Integrate that (internally between the ears) with an Apexpro to get real-time tire-slip and "G-available." You just moved up your data utility, but also your processing. Apexpro is under $500 as I recall. GPS with HUD ~ eBay under $50.
Focus a video camera on your line of sight and include the GPS Speed and Apexpro in the view and you have post processing available. Could be a cheapie - or pick something that has growth potential. AIM, GoPro are maybe the standouts. Something purpose-built and hard mounted to a roll cage beats a phone flying around the cockpit.

More expensive items AIM, MO-TEC, Race-Technology (my favorite), RaceCapture Pro. There are phone apps, and some stand-alone lap-timers. I'll look for the xls file some. Hope I still have it...

BTW - The APEXPRO would be helpful in real-time assessment of the front suspension changes. Hit a corner at the same speed, turn-in point, see the g-available.

Cheers - Jim

you reminded me of the other issue I had last weekend... the seats interfere with where I was mounting the go-pro.... need to resolve that issue as well

speed/moment in time - I have no idea how fast I'm going when the front end washes out to understeer (also a bit of a - should have bought different needles on the Dakota Digital, white over black is impossible to comprehend quickly for me). So far, where I'm running I immediately get the raw lap time when I'm done either on the big board or Race Monitor (app).

I also have big plans to get a led RPM indicator on the dash.... but I just found out we may be moving 300 miles - so that may throw a wrench or two into my upgrade plans.....

Apex pro has a 10-12 wait.... in short, I'd wait for SEMA before buying something since this year should be pretty cool with the new stuff coming and 2 years of backlog

I didn't even realize that my Go-pro 9 (black) had the capability.... time to order the race-technology software.... outside of the rpm indicator, that seems to be all I need... cool!

 

[phantomjock]

Good catch - I forgot about the GoPro to RT integration. That developed maybe 2 years or so back - I was a beta tester for a while but dropped out as my unit was incompatible.

I have the spread sheet and a pdf from Frank Whiton (GM engineer) from a few years back. He goes through all the possible integration/application - right down to parts layout. Will load later - maybe in downloads section with a pointer thread.

Cheers - Jim

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Good catch - I forgot about the GoPro to RT integration. That developed maybe 2 years or so back - I was a beta tester for a while but dropped out as my unit was incompatible.

I have the spread sheet and a pdf from Frank Whiton (GM engineer) from a few years back. He goes through all the possible integration/application - right down to parts layout. Will load later - maybe in downloads section with a pointer thread.

Cheers - Jim

saw your thread, thank you, it will be really cool to have a one-stop shop for that ...

 

[phantomjock]

The 2 documents are loaded now in Electrical & Wiring Downloads.

Cheers - Jim

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

The 2 documents are loaded now in Electrical & Wiring Downloads.

Cheers - Jim

downloaded... the expected outputs from each sensor is gold-level knowledge. It also helps me understand why the 'same' sensor (2 different ones) give wildly different outputs. My temp sensor for the Dakota Digital reads about 10 degrees higher then the Holley sensor. Testing showed that the Holley sensor is right. The sensors are twins... and within 6 inches of each other (either side of the thermostat.) Which could be that one side is running warmer - but the spark plugs on either side read the same....

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

In reading through some of the other great stuff on the downloads, I should expect a 0 degree ackerman right/left on the C5 front suspension. Also has the target ride heights, which is quite helpful.

Wish I could upload the file I have on C5 frame dimensions, but it came from a copyrighted source.... if anyone needs it, however, fair use law says I can send it to you.... just not upload it for general consumption.

 

[phantomjock]

Might reach out to vette427sbc over on the east-coast (NJ?)
I seem to recall he maybe was using SuspensionPro (Performance Trends) for some design, and was also doing a C5 front end. He might have some design ideas that he's been through - Ackerman, bump steer, etc. We are a Community!

Cheers - Jim

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

I tested my tire temperature device, did a baseline and outside one tire a bit over inflated (36.5 v. 32.5)... all was well.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

First thing today... fix a broken side lens

drill hole, run a screw/washer in.... fixed

this is an issue, don't know the solution yet... I suspect I need to brace the front more....

time to get serious about steering.... that's a tire temp gauge (for those who don't know)

I did go from 1/8" in to 1/8" out.... I'll do a temp test in a day or so... I still have some other alignment stuff to do - but the 'drive around the block' is it's quicker steering.... I need to get it up to speed, though and see how it really does
cheap slide plates - don't steal from the kitchen...

oh good grief.... for those who wonder why I do most stuff myself - a professional did this (gasket)

people may wonder why I don't have many friends.... I ask them to do things like this


in other news, my brake lever is the problem - a new-to-me is on its way

and my dumb question of the day.... why are splitters so expensive? the hardware is cheap from Aircraft Spruce and making a carbon-covered honeycomb is easy... but then again.... I quite frankly don't have a clue.... and by so expensive - they cost the same as a wing....

 

[phantomjock]

Birch ply - or pvc board until you get it "sized right" saves a few dollars while in test. Weight an issue with those, but many track rats use until they rot or break.

Also, weigh (ha ha) the price/performance and cost benefit of CF vs 'glass and epoxy vs polyester. Definitely use core, however make sure compatible with your resin! Just one man's opinion.

BTW - what was the "gasket?" Image was a re-post.

Cheers - Jim

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

fixed

 

[phantomjock]

Holy Crap! Hope you didn't get full charged for that job!

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Holy Crap! Hope you didn't get full charged for that job!

50 years in the industry, knows more then me (fair), never makes a mistake.... yeah. Thing is he's retired and he's a little guy... sure, I could take it back to him, but it'd probably crush him..... that TKK transmission is sure looking appealing right now.... I tightened the bolts - and they took tightening - so I'm hoping that stems the flow for now....

 

[phantomjock]

You a Good Man!

Similar/different circumstance with a small local shop, reassembled the CVs on my cut-down (cryo-treated) axles.

Took 18 months - a learning experience for both of us. Me already - years behind!
I learned a little (more) patience. He learned a new skill and can do it again.
We both gained.

Lousy Haiku - I'll do better tomorrow...

Cheers - Jim

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

got my degree plates today


hmmm 23 degrees



does it matter? the wheel moves rearward quite a bit at full lock


so here are the numbers... at 10 degrees, there is very little ackerman

but at 30 degrees, the other side is 23 degrees


drove the car with the toe-out alignment... much, much, much better

in other news, that's a friend's 73 C3... we're replacing the rear suspension.... it had troubles, lots and lots of troubles


thankfully one of those troubles wasn't I had put the Buick in the way of dropping it down on the lift

 

[bobs77vet]

yikes reminds me of the guy who was so scared of scratching his newly painted cars mirrors when he was backing it out of the garage he forgot to put the hood down, and it was a C3


on those degree plates are the degrees are relative to each other as opposed to giving an independent reading for each plate? how do you center them to the car, cars frame and the back wheels? is there some big X measurement you make to square then all up?

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

yikes reminds me of the guy who was so scared of scratching his newly painted cars mirrors when he was backing it out of the garage he forgot to put the hood down, and it was a C3


on those degree plates are the degrees are relative to each other as opposed to giving an independent reading for each plate? how do you center them to the car, cars frame and the back wheels? is there some big X measurement you make to square then all up?

we won't mention that I almost hit my C3, yesterday, because it was parked in the garage where I normally park my DD.... the red C3 takes a shop space and I have 2 vehicles that must be parked inside... thus the C3 evicted my pickup.

independent reading
with my eyeballs
ever since the piano from the sky incident, I don't mark big X's on the ground.... as far as the wheel moving fore/aft, I presume that's actually a benefit to turning as it shortens the inside turn diameter wheelbase and stretches the wheelbase on the outside wheels.... of course, with all, there must be limits and there's where my understanding starts to get fuzzy.... because the inner wheel turns fewer degrees but the wheelbase shortens, does that change how I should align (camber)?

 

[mfain]

If you are still trying to fix the understeer in that tight corner at the end of the autocross course, you need to see what your steering angle is during that turn and measure the total toe with the wheels turned that far. If the toe angle between the two wheels is great (more than needed for that turn radius, less a little allowance for scrub angle on the outside tire), then adding toe out to your static toe adjustment actually hurts, rather than helps. Toe out will make the car feel better on turn-in for "normal" turns like road course or autocross, other than that one sharp corner that you are encountering. If it were me, I would adjust for the 90% of "normal" corners and just accept the fact that the car will push in the one corner that is causing you trouble. That corner would be a good place to show off your drifting skills. LOL

 

[phantomjock]

...That corner would be a good place to show off your drifting skills. LOL

Yeah - - Generate some Throttle-On Oversteer to bring the b1tch around...

Cheers - Jim

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

...That corner would be a good place to show off your drifting skills. LOL

Yeah - - Generate some Throttle-On Oversteer to bring the b1tch around...

Cheers - Jim

it just pushes.... don't ask me how I know this....

more seriously - slalom worked really well, it's when I was basically going around at full lock where the front would wash out*... the 325 rear tires have a lot of traction...

as far as toe out, it feels a lot more precise and lighter steering feel.... but no autox, yet, to see if that feeling is anything real

*and I tried a number of ways to get it to go around including loading then hard turn... what has 'worked' is tapping the brakes... but that kills speed (who knew brakes only slow you down?)

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

If you are still trying to fix the understeer in that tight corner at the end of the autocross course, you need to see what your steering angle is during that turn and measure the total toe with the wheels turned that far. If the toe angle between the two wheels is great (more than needed for that turn radius, less a little allowance for scrub angle on the outside tire), then adding toe out to your static toe adjustment actually hurts, rather than helps. Toe out will make the car feel better on turn-in for "normal" turns like road course or autocross, other than that one sharp corner that you are encountering. If it were me, I would adjust for the 90% of "normal" corners and just accept the fact that the car will push in the one corner that is causing you trouble. That corner would be a good place to show off your drifting skills. LOL

when I change to a 200tw tire, I wonder if it might be useful to see if I can fit something a bit wider on the front... the biggest issue at the moment is that I have no extra clearance on the outer sidewall and the fender... maybe when I'm rich, I can get custom offset wheels... of course, as my wife would suggest, if I stopped racing; I'd have the funds to do such things .... :crutches:

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

it's ironic that my complaints to CIC also resulted in a 3" front flare.... if I were to build another C3; I'd probably go that route... who knows, with the understeer, I might solve that problem :goodevil:

 

[BBShark]

If you are still trying to fix the understeer in that tight corner at the end of the autocross course, you need to see what your steering angle is during that turn and measure the total toe with the wheels turned that far. If the toe angle between the two wheels is great (more than needed for that turn radius, less a little allowance for scrub angle on the outside tire), then adding toe out to your static toe adjustment actually hurts, rather than helps. Toe out will make the car feel better on turn-in for "normal" turns like road course or autocross, other than that one sharp corner that you are encountering. If it were me, I would adjust for the 90% of "normal" corners and just accept the fact that the car will push in the one corner that is causing you trouble. That corner would be a good place to show off your drifting skills. LOL

when I change to a 200tw tire, I wonder if it might be useful to see if I can fit something a bit wider on the front... the biggest issue at the moment is that I have no extra clearance on the outer sidewall and the fender... maybe when I'm rich, I can get custom offset wheels... of course, as my wife would suggest, if I stopped racing; I'd have the funds to do such things .... :crutches:

I've never seen this but, don't tires have an optimal unit area load? So making the contact "patch" area bigger (with a wider tire) could actually decrease traction (with a smaller unit area load)?

 

[rtj]

I liked the change in cornering when I put wider tires on the front (same with as the rear). But that was just cruising around in Fl.

With that c5 front end, there should be lots of info out there for you.

I think someone said c5z road racers were switching to C6 front end components. I’ll see if I can find that.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

If you are still trying to fix the understeer in that tight corner at the end of the autocross course, you need to see what your steering angle is during that turn and measure the total toe with the wheels turned that far. If the toe angle between the two wheels is great (more than needed for that turn radius, less a little allowance for scrub angle on the outside tire), then adding toe out to your static toe adjustment actually hurts, rather than helps. Toe out will make the car feel better on turn-in for "normal" turns like road course or autocross, other than that one sharp corner that you are encountering. If it were me, I would adjust for the 90% of "normal" corners and just accept the fact that the car will push in the one corner that is causing you trouble. That corner would be a good place to show off your drifting skills. LOL

when I change to a 200tw tire, I wonder if it might be useful to see if I can fit something a bit wider on the front... the biggest issue at the moment is that I have no extra clearance on the outer sidewall and the fender... maybe when I'm rich, I can get custom offset wheels... of course, as my wife would suggest, if I stopped racing; I'd have the funds to do such things .... :crutches:

I've never seen this but, don't tires have an optimal unit area load? So making the contact "patch" area bigger (with a wider tire) could actually decrease traction (with a smaller unit area load)?

floatation is very useful for my wheeling on the snow - but I have no idea in this arena.... I can certainly play with tire pressures.... I'm not even across the tread but have no idea whether the 1 degree difference makes any difference at all.... at the Autox I watch people check tire pressures religiously, even record them, but I'm not sure I saw a contact-temp-gauge (which, to me, would seem more important)... again. I really have no idea but hoping to learn.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

I liked the change in cornering when I put wider tires on the front (same with as the rear). But that was just cruising around in Fl.

With that c5 front end, there should be lots of info out there for you.

I think someone said c5z road racers were switching to C6 front end components. I’ll see if I can find that.

I was operating under the assumption that they were the same - most things I've read say they are... but I dunno... I'll have to look too. IIRC, many of the parts have the same part number.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

What I'm finding
"The short-long arm and transverse leaf spring independent suspension configuration remains, but none of the suspension components have been carried over from C5. Improvements in ride and handling include greater lateral acceleration, more body control, less noise transmitted from the road, and better traction and stability in corners. The specific tuning changes in the chassis and suspension include suspension and steering geometry optimized for better handling and ride, advanced compounds in the tires, new directional control arm bushings, increased caster angle and greater suspension ride travel."
Numbers would be nice, but different bushings is a good clue - that said, the track and wheelbase changed between the 5 and 6 - so 'optimized' is probably changes due to those differences.

I didn't realize this... I may swap my lighter springs back into the front
this is C5 - I'm not sure I'd survive a stiffer rear spring in my car. On second thought, with a wing, this would be a smart change....
Springs
Base...440/577
Z51....525/634
Z06....525/714

on Lateral-g

All of the parts will swap. The frame its self was the same from 1997-2013 except the C6 Z06 which was aluminum and had a different mount design for the rear upper control arms. The pick up points are the same they just redesigned the control arms for strength.

The front cradle is will swap between the two and only had minor changes. The rear has a different cradle to accept the auto 6 speed and how they mount with two pads vs. one on the C6. If you swap C6 rear lower control arms onto the C5 it will move the wheels back about 3/4" and center the wheel better in the opening. This was in part to offset the longer 6 speed auto vs. the 4 speed.

The C6 spindles are the same mounting point wise, but are a different aluminum and have thicker brake mounting bosses and overall they were stiffer than the C5. Direct swap between the two models.