High performance oil systems

[turtlevette]

Hp gain is not the real purpose of a dry sump imo, reliability and protection of the engine is.

exactly,

Who do we know that has a car and the skills to corner hard enough for long enough to need a dry sump.

redvet
racervet

i can't think of any others. The rest of us are romper room racers with fisher price pedalcars.prrtt:

 

[redvetracr]

Yes, piece of cake can mean allot of things....... From start to finish maybe 40 man hours to convert to dry sump. If your time is free the hp gained only costs about $100 per hp. That is using conservative numbers like $2500 and 25 hp gained @ 18 inches of vacuum by the dry sump

RE-READ my post...I said "notching the frame is a piece of cake"....it might take 40 hours if your including R&R of the engine to modify it for a drysump and mounting an oil pan but hanging the tank, lines, and screen filter doesn`t take 40 hours (the cooler should already be there)....maybe they are billing the "checkbook racers" for 40 hours but doing A Corvette is pretty straight forward IF one knows what he is doing and what parts to buy the first time....come to think of it the whole job is a piece of cake...if you know what you are doing.
redvetracr

 

[redvetracr]

Hp gain is not the real purpose of a dry sump imo, reliability and protection of the engine is.

Dry sump oiling is no longer a luxury on a road coarse it`s a necessity, I wouldn`t dream of racing a car without one. When every horsepower counts unlocking the horsepower loss from parasitic drag becomes very important. If the horsepower is there why not unlock it?
redvetracr

PS: there was a show on the Speed channel where they went to the Corvette plant to document the build of a new ZO-6, part of the show was on a test track where the measured "G`s" they showed a U shaped tube partly filled with colored water, it didn`t take cornering much to move all that water up the side of the U and away from the center (where your oil pickup would be)....

 

[Belgian1979vette]

exactly,

Who do we know that has a car and the skills to corner hard enough for long enough to need a dry sump.

redvet
racervet

i can't think of any others. The rest of us are romper room racers with fisher price pedalcars.prrtt:

I do not agree. :smash:

 

[turtlevette]

I do not agree. :smash:

Ok,

it also looks neat at the show n' shine, so go for it.

 

[gkull]

RE-READ my post...I said "notching the frame is a piece of cake"....it might take 40 hours if your including R&R of the engine to modify it for a drysump and mounting an oil pan but hanging the tank, lines, and screen filter doesn`t take 40 hours (the cooler should already be there)....maybe they are billing the "checkbook racers" for 40 hours but doing A Corvette is pretty straight forward IF one knows what he is doing and what parts to buy the first time....come to think of it the whole job is a piece of cake...if you know what you are doing.
redvetracr

I'd have to ask how many hours it took to do the two 1964 Bizzarini Iso Grifo Berlinetta 5300 Corsa (Grifo AC3 body and Corvette 327 cu in (5,360 cc) engine). and the two C-2 Vettes. They did a beautiful job on every one of them.

They didn't have an example to look at. I just pulled 40 man hours out of a hat. I was including the hours to R&R the motor.

I've given up on Racing my Vette. To run three 30 minute sessions (one day of SCCA racing) cost me about $850 each and every day. My front and rear tires last two race days. The tires are about $1200 mounted and balanced, $200 entry fee each day, $100 in race gas and fluids.

 

[Yellow73SB]

Those r6's should definately be lasting longer than 3 30 minute sessions

 

[gkull]

Those r6's should definately be lasting longer than 3 30 minute sessions

We have a very abrasive track. I even bought the optional factory heat cycled to make them last longer. As speed goes up tires go much faster. It's not just me I was talking to some of the other guys in the pits who were all in C-6 Z06s and they said they were getting two days out of their tire using 315 fronts and 335 rears

 

[redvetracr]

I'd have to ask how many hours it took to do the two 1964 Bizzarini Iso Grifo Berlinetta 5300 Corsa (Grifo AC3 body and Corvette 327 cu in (5,360 cc) engine). and the two C-2 Vettes. They did a beautiful job on every one of them.

They didn't have an example to look at. I just pulled 40 man hours out of a hat. I was including the hours to R&R the motor.

except that by using a Bizzarini Iso Grifo instead of a standard Corvette race car for your comparison you are comparing apples to oranges.....dry sump oiling is actually pretty simple once you understand what all the parts do.
redvetracr

 

[TheSkunkWorks]

exactly,

Who do we know that has a car and the skills to corner hard enough for long enough to need a dry sump.

redvet
racervet

i can't think of any others. The rest of us are romper room racers with fisher price pedalcars.prrtt:

Hey. Speak for yourself... :bump:

 

[Twin_Turbo]

Yeah, there's not much to it really. A pump, a drive mandrel, some hoses, a tank and a filter (or multiple, depending on filtered scavenge lines and such)

Nothing the frame is really easy, notching the frame and having to incorporate a hole for a steering shaft, now then it gets exciting

 

[Belgian1979vette]

Yeah, there's not much to it really. A pump, a drive mandrel, some hoses, a tank and a filter (or multiple, depending on filtered scavenge lines and such)

Nothing the frame is really easy, notching the frame and having to incorporate a hole for a steering shaft, now then it gets exciting

I agree that basically there is not much to the system. I can understand that notching the frame would be doable (except when it's already powder coated).
However I do not understand the relation between the steering and a hole in the frame ??

I'm not going to mount a dry sump just because it's nice to look at. It has to have some reason to it. The only reason for me is to avoid having damage to my engine, like TT stated in one of my other threads.
If a accusump wil suffice, then it will be a accusump. The only thing I have my doubts about is that when the oil pump sucks up air, this air gets entrapped in the lines/block bores. An accusump could supply the engine with the extra oil it needs, but the airbubbles will still get to the bearings, or am I seeing this wrong.

 

[redvetracr]

However I do not understand the relation between the steering and a hole in the frame ??I believe it was a joke



The only thing I have my doubts about is that when the oil pump sucks up air, this air gets entrapped in the lines/block bores. An accusump could supply the engine with the extra oil it needs, but the airbubbles will still get to the bearings, or am I seeing this wrong.

there are two "sides" to a dry sump pump, the pressure side (a single stage) and the scavenge side usually two to four stages (each "stage" is a single pump), the (out side) of the scavenge stages are hooked together, either internally or externally with a "manifold". The pressure stage receives oil (only, no air) from the bottom of the tank, the scavenge stages suck oil and air out of the pan and sometimes out of the valley and return it to the top of the tank where (if you have a good tank) the oil and air get separated, the oil falls through baffles as it swirls around the side of the tank and the air escapes out the top of the tank...also on the pressure side is a screen filter used to collect trash (I run a remote, some guys mount small screens on the pan), on the pressure side you also have your cooler (which can also be mounted on the scavenge side) and a paper filter (usually remote)....it sounds complicated but if you looked at a schematic you would understand it.
redvetracr

 

[Twin_Turbo]

I agree that basically there is not much to the system. I can understand that notching the frame would be doable (except when it's already powder coated).
However I do not understand the relation between the steering and a hole in the frame ??

The steering is not an issue you will see, however I have this:


And the steering shaft comes in where the pump sits, took a bit of fiddling to cram it all in there. I made a bracket to move the dry sump pump up a bit.

 

[TheSkunkWorks]

FYI, just saw where Moroso has introduced a new "super duty" accumulator (#23902), and is now handling the electronic pressure control solenoids.

 

[Belgian1979vette]

TT, I think you have an awsome car what is technical side is concerned, but I don't think there are many who have the same thing.

Would you be able to mount the pump on top of the engine and use an accumulator to prime it ?

Then it would only leave the oil tank to fiddle with. BTW what makes a dry sump tank so special ?

 

[Twin_Turbo]

I know, my comment about the steering shaft was tongue in cheek, I meand that the dry sump pump install is pretty straightforward, as is notching the frame. No you can't mount the pump on top and use an accumulator to prime, you could use a check valve in the return line. The plates and internal design make the tank special, it's designed to de-aerate the oil (the oil comes back from the pump in a frothy state, like whipped cream) That's why you want a large, round and as tall as possible tank. Square ones don't work very well.

 

[Belgian1979vette]

Good article from Johnson oil pumps

I thought I would add this for information. They basically give a reason for using squirters in the engine as has been mentioned before.

http://johnsonsoilpumps.com/product_frame.htm
(apparently I cannot get a direct link, but you have to click the technical info.

 

[Twin_Turbo]

Squirters are not only used for pin oiling (there are other tricks for that like EDM machined rods), they're primarily used for piston crown cooling, especially on turbocharged/supercharged applications to keep the crown cool so you don't have to use thick rings (heat dissipation) and very thick crowns (lightweight pistons)

Do you mean this article?

 

[Belgian1979vette]

Yes, it suggests that a dry sump will draw so much of the oil vapor/oil out of the crankcase to starve the cylinderwalls and rodends.

 

[White76]

I'm mounting an accumulator for my wet sump system vertically behind the driver's side front wheel where the charcol canister is originally mounted. Which way is the best direction to mount an accumulator ... oil discharge end pointing down or up?

 

[TheSkunkWorks]

I'm mounting an accumulator for my wet sump system vertically behind the driver's side front wheel where the charcol canister is originally mounted. Which way is the best direction to mount an accumulator ... oil discharge end pointing down or up?

I'm not sure it matters, as there's no mention on the instruction sheet for mine...

 

[redvetracr]

TT, I think you have an awsome car what is technical side is concerned, but I don't think there are many who have the same thing.

Would you be able to mount the pump on top of the engine and use an accumulator to prime it ?

Then it would only leave the oil tank to fiddle with. BTW what makes a dry sump tank so special ?

the tank is what separates oil and air...the better (read: more expensive) tanks do a better job. I had an old Moon tank in my car for years...besides the gasket in the middle I never had a problem, I switched to a 4 stage (more suction) with the 18* head motor, the Moon was no longer adequate, I took the Patterson tank out of my third racer added a baffle and a better vent and no more problems.
redvetracr

 

[Twin_Turbo]

I have a patterson tank too, 5 gallons. Easy to take apart and clean. Just 2 halves with a large 2 pc u clamp and a big o ring in between.It comes apart completely, even the tray comes out. I modified mine and welded on -12AN bungs for fittings to hook up the evac. hoses. I didn't want rubber hoses on there and the tank came without any breather conenctions when I got it. If you buy a tank, make sure it has radial return inlets (top) and a central (bottom_ pickup for oil towards the pumps pressure section.

 

[racervette69]

I'm mounting an accumulator for my wet sump system vertically behind the driver's side front wheel where the charcol canister is originally mounted. Which way is the best direction to mount an accumulator ... oil discharge end pointing down or up?

http://www.accusump.com/accusump.pdf/instructions.pdf

 

[redvetracr]

I have a patterson tank too, 5 gallons. Easy to take apart and clean. Just 2 halves with a large 2 pc u clamp and a big o ring in between.It comes apart completely, even the tray comes out. I modified mine and welded on -12AN bungs for fittings to hook up the evac. hoses. I didn't want rubber hoses on there and the tank came without any breather conenctions when I got it. If you buy a tank, make sure it has radial return inlets (top) and a central (bottom_ pickup for oil towards the pumps pressure section.

According to Mike at Patterson the correct way to vent the tank is to run a 1" aluminum tube into the side of the center column at the very top...he called it a "mouse tube", he also said adding another flat baffle would help, so we added another baffle. the top of your baffle has a series of holes going around it, does it look like someone took an awl and slightly bent the edge of each hole? Mine is an early designed 4 gal tank, the car it came out of had very few races on it so while it appears brand new it didn`t have the latest design vent but it did have the double row of holes bent with an awl, something they don`t do anymore...too expensive he said.
redvetracr

 

[White76]

I'm not sure it matters, as there's no mention on the instruction sheet for mine...

http://www.accusump.com/accusump.pdf/instructions.pdf

Thanks guys, but here is what has got me wondering. The instructions state:

"The Accusump™ will work with the tube in any position or orientation; however, if possible, mount the tube with
the oil end (the end with the oil valve) slightly higher than the air end. This will prevent accumulation of air bubbles
(coming from foam in the oil) by purging any minor air pocket during pre-oiling, when it will not cause any harm."

I just didn't know how important this was. I would prefer to mount the accumulator with the oil valve at the bottom amd the air valve and gauge at the top so I could get to them easier. However, if it is important to purge the air pocket during pre-oiling, I could mount the unit the other way and run two lines to remote mount the gauge & air valve so I wouldn't have to crawl under the car to see them. It would just take more work, parts, and $$$.

Jason

 

[gkull]

exactly,

Who do we know that has a car and the skills to corner hard enough for long enough to need a dry sump.

redvet
racervet

i can't think of any others. The rest of us are romper room racers with fisher price pedalcars.prrtt:

Sir, I have never understood what chip you have on your shoulder................ I always applaud the underdog. I throw what I can afford into what ever I do. I just do what i can. I work a second job at a race shop to learn. Then I do what I can.

I made a three dollar camera mount for in car videos. I posted them for all to see and you heckled me for my lack of skill..... Little did you know that that the cheap steel wheels, Brakes that over heat and completely failed, wrong size sportsmans slicks, and wrong tire pressures made it like driving on grease.

I changed my tires and drove home............. Never gave it another thought , other than what I would do better next time. Only to come back and find out that I had placed first in class with the fastest time in BP for that SCCA TT event.

I applaud you for going out to the track on occasion................ Why don't you give that consideration to others?

 

[racervette69]

Belgian1979vette, What are you going to use your car for?

OT,,Admiration should be given to anyone that has the initiative and is willing to risk the destruction of their C3. Be it,,, Autoxs, HPDEs, TTs Drags, RR, or other sanctioned speed events. Just take all those mods and get out there.. if you are first or last,, you are still one of the few.

 

[Belgian1979vette]

Well racer, I would like to go to the dry sump setup, but if I would do it, it would have to be with as minimal changes to the car as possible. Look at it like this : I built my engine as a sort of experiment to see how well it works. After my vette is complete, i will probably not ever restore another one because of the cost involved in these cars and the growing anti-car climate that is currently ruling here. However I do like working on cars so much that I will venture in building a purpose built racechassis with a chevy engine setup. If my engine turns out to be a good engine, i may eventually transplant it to the racecar and drop in a hopped up 350 in the vette without all the rings and bells this engine has. That is why the car needs as little changes as necessary. The kind of hp this engine (should) produce is basically not usable around here with all the speed limits :banghead:
A dry sump could be something I would need for this future race chassis so it would not be money trown away. BTW I would run this racecar on a nearby ex formula 1 circuit (Zolder, which is about 10 kms from my home).

I'm looking into mounting a other kind of power steering pump on the right cylinder bank with a remote fluid tank and then mount a dry sump pump on the lower left side of the engine. That way I could use the existing frame crossmember notching that is already built in (don't know if that would work, so feel free to correct me)
That would leave only the oil tank to be fiddled with and seen the fact that space in our cars is a rare commodity, this will be the biggest problem.

Maybe a small unbaffled rectangular tank would work on the street and some spirited driving on back roads or in Germany. I would definatly to avoid having my expensive engine being damaged from lack of lubrication.