donnie1956
Active member
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Decline of St Louis
- Thread starter donnie1956
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IronJen
Formerly known as VegasJen
It was a pretty interesting article. But I really don't believe, as the author eludes, that Michael Brown would have turned out too much differently. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? But the reality is that the story is repeated too many times throughout the country, with the same outcome.
Sadly, the black community in this country has been sold a bill of goods which, as it turns out, is naturally, inherently defective. That bill of goods is that the transgressions of the past are so severe, so injurious, that this generation and all future generations will forever be indebted to repay them. The vast majority of the black community has willingly and without critique accepted this premise. So many believe it is a license to loaf, to con, to cheat, to steal, often times irrespective of who is the victim of their perceived retribution. So many times victims of the violence are other minorities, even other blacks from within the same communities.
And what is worse than all of this is the general decline of society overall. Black Americans refuse to invest in the promise of the country. They inadvertently perpetuate the stereotypes they constantly rail against. Meanwhile white America is generally too petrified to be labeled racist to stand up and demand civility and true equality. Not "affirmative action" equality, that pseudo equality that comes from self inflicted handicaps from schools that disproportionately promote failing students (predominantly inner city, read "black") students. But an equality of expectation. The belief that each and every one of us, regardless of race or ethnicity, is fully capable of anything which we set our minds to accomplishing.
What should happen if America is to resume her rightful place as a world leader and moral authority is that black Americans should stand up and tell the world "we can learn anything anyone else can. We don't need quotas because we're as good as anybody else and we can prove it." While white Americans no longer enable black America in devolving into a lower class citizenry not just economically or socially but as human beings.
The very first step would be for black America to recognize the profiteers of racial strife. Leeches like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton should be seen for exactly what they are: charlatans and looters of opportunity. Evil men who are the rival of the very worst third world dictator known to human kind. These very people have ensured an entire race of Americans remain subject to poverty and closed off to opportunity, all to sustain their own wealth and power. Were they white, they would be rightly held in contempt by any decent person, regardless of race.
The next step is for white America to make a statement that is you WILL BE included in the American experience. No longer will we accept that you will stay on the outside looking in and cursing. No longer will you be allowed to point fingers and blame an entire race for some perceived continued exploitation. No longer will the excuse that you cannot accomplish things because of the color of your skin or the perception that someone is holding you down. Life is ******* tough for everybody, unless your name happens to be Kennedy or Clinton. Each and every one of us face difficulties and, yes, they vary. Some are harder than others. But there really isn't a "white club" where we sit back and laugh at how tough we make life for all the minorities. Or at least if there is, I have never been invited. My invitation must have been lost in the mail.
To paraphrase De Toqueville, America is a great people because America is a good people. I used to believe that. I do still think it's possible. But I no longer believe it is a universality. Instead, today people are surprised when someone else does "the right thing". And today, even the slightest perceived injustice is used as righteous cause for despicable acts, facts be damned. We are no longer a good people. We are a people at war with ourselves.
I am saddened beyond the ability to convey at so much opportunity lost. So many lives relegated to meaningless. How horrible must it be to live one's entire life never believing that there could ever be opportunity? To always assume that even the most basic efforts will be thwarted by some malicious oppressor? To believe with all your heart and soul that the only way to profit is to take from others, near or far, white or black, rich or poor? How desperate a life must that be?
Without a paradigm shift in the thought of all American society, we are already doomed to watch as our nation crumbles and becomes a hollow shell of what it was, and what it could still be. Sadly, I feel that we will never realize such a shift. The grip of fear, scorn and bitterness is as internal to so many that the only rival I can imagine is the irrational, illogical, fervent hatred of a religious sect. Just as Muslims have been infected by the virus of jihad, black America has been infected by the virus of reverse racism. Sadly, just as jihad, this virus has proven to be incredibly resilient. Such is the nature of belief.
Sadly, the black community in this country has been sold a bill of goods which, as it turns out, is naturally, inherently defective. That bill of goods is that the transgressions of the past are so severe, so injurious, that this generation and all future generations will forever be indebted to repay them. The vast majority of the black community has willingly and without critique accepted this premise. So many believe it is a license to loaf, to con, to cheat, to steal, often times irrespective of who is the victim of their perceived retribution. So many times victims of the violence are other minorities, even other blacks from within the same communities.
And what is worse than all of this is the general decline of society overall. Black Americans refuse to invest in the promise of the country. They inadvertently perpetuate the stereotypes they constantly rail against. Meanwhile white America is generally too petrified to be labeled racist to stand up and demand civility and true equality. Not "affirmative action" equality, that pseudo equality that comes from self inflicted handicaps from schools that disproportionately promote failing students (predominantly inner city, read "black") students. But an equality of expectation. The belief that each and every one of us, regardless of race or ethnicity, is fully capable of anything which we set our minds to accomplishing.
What should happen if America is to resume her rightful place as a world leader and moral authority is that black Americans should stand up and tell the world "we can learn anything anyone else can. We don't need quotas because we're as good as anybody else and we can prove it." While white Americans no longer enable black America in devolving into a lower class citizenry not just economically or socially but as human beings.
The very first step would be for black America to recognize the profiteers of racial strife. Leeches like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton should be seen for exactly what they are: charlatans and looters of opportunity. Evil men who are the rival of the very worst third world dictator known to human kind. These very people have ensured an entire race of Americans remain subject to poverty and closed off to opportunity, all to sustain their own wealth and power. Were they white, they would be rightly held in contempt by any decent person, regardless of race.
The next step is for white America to make a statement that is you WILL BE included in the American experience. No longer will we accept that you will stay on the outside looking in and cursing. No longer will you be allowed to point fingers and blame an entire race for some perceived continued exploitation. No longer will the excuse that you cannot accomplish things because of the color of your skin or the perception that someone is holding you down. Life is ******* tough for everybody, unless your name happens to be Kennedy or Clinton. Each and every one of us face difficulties and, yes, they vary. Some are harder than others. But there really isn't a "white club" where we sit back and laugh at how tough we make life for all the minorities. Or at least if there is, I have never been invited. My invitation must have been lost in the mail.
To paraphrase De Toqueville, America is a great people because America is a good people. I used to believe that. I do still think it's possible. But I no longer believe it is a universality. Instead, today people are surprised when someone else does "the right thing". And today, even the slightest perceived injustice is used as righteous cause for despicable acts, facts be damned. We are no longer a good people. We are a people at war with ourselves.
I am saddened beyond the ability to convey at so much opportunity lost. So many lives relegated to meaningless. How horrible must it be to live one's entire life never believing that there could ever be opportunity? To always assume that even the most basic efforts will be thwarted by some malicious oppressor? To believe with all your heart and soul that the only way to profit is to take from others, near or far, white or black, rich or poor? How desperate a life must that be?
Without a paradigm shift in the thought of all American society, we are already doomed to watch as our nation crumbles and becomes a hollow shell of what it was, and what it could still be. Sadly, I feel that we will never realize such a shift. The grip of fear, scorn and bitterness is as internal to so many that the only rival I can imagine is the irrational, illogical, fervent hatred of a religious sect. Just as Muslims have been infected by the virus of jihad, black America has been infected by the virus of reverse racism. Sadly, just as jihad, this virus has proven to be incredibly resilient. Such is the nature of belief.
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Name ONE positive influence of any major proportion to come out of Africa, in the entire recorded history of the world.....and the ancient Egypt carvings depict European folks, not some aramaic background.....:lol:
IronJen
Formerly known as VegasJen
Don't go there, GENE....
Too soon to start selling "I looted Ferguson and all I got was this crappy T shirt" T shirts?
And I got another question. They looted an Autozone, Advance Auto, and Oreileys. Even when I go in there with all the correct info and the guy looks it up on the computer, it's wrong half the time. What the hell do you steal, random parts that go to who knows what?????
Oh yeah, for those that missed this:
https://news.vice.com/article/pants...rguson-protesters-is-successfully-crowdfunded
And I got another question. They looted an Autozone, Advance Auto, and Oreileys. Even when I go in there with all the correct info and the guy looks it up on the computer, it's wrong half the time. What the hell do you steal, random parts that go to who knows what?????
Oh yeah, for those that missed this:
https://news.vice.com/article/pants...rguson-protesters-is-successfully-crowdfunded
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mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Same thing that happened in DC in the '68 riots....they burnt out a huge section of the city, all the businesses/job left that area, and to get a can of beer or smokes, they had to drive some 5 miles one way.....
And funny, I have never had that much trouble with any of the parts chains and pulling parts, but I tend to drive American badge cars....
Bullshark
Well-known member
Nice dissertation Jen, but you are going to have to do an Ebonics translation to get your point across to the people who could benefit by it.
This whole Michel Brown and the fall of St. Louis crap really pisses me off. St. Louis is not "declining" anymore than any other big city in the USA. Although now retired, my job with McDonnell Douglas / Boeing offered me the opportunity to travel throughout the country and witness the pros and cons of many cities and their communities. St. Louis is heads above many of them. Hell just recently my son and I took a weekend trip to Jacksonville to take in the Florida / Missouri Football game. Stayed in a nice hotel on the south side closer to Gainesville. A city in Florida we thought was on the rise providing exciting opportunities for recreation, careers, fun living etc. Don't get me wrong, I am sure it has many of those characteristics. We also decided to attend the Jaguar/Browns game. Talk about the hood, North Jacksonville is daunting. One of the highest crime areas per capita in the US. Sorry Gene, but my point is not to single out any one city but to use it as an example in addition to St.Louis that illustrates all the major US cities.
To answer the articles author's question, if Michel Brown were to have grown up in Bowling Green, he would still have been a Punk Bully who thought he could take advantage of society. His parental upbringing, or lack thereof, would have insured that.
This whole Michel Brown and the fall of St. Louis crap really pisses me off. St. Louis is not "declining" anymore than any other big city in the USA. Although now retired, my job with McDonnell Douglas / Boeing offered me the opportunity to travel throughout the country and witness the pros and cons of many cities and their communities. St. Louis is heads above many of them. Hell just recently my son and I took a weekend trip to Jacksonville to take in the Florida / Missouri Football game. Stayed in a nice hotel on the south side closer to Gainesville. A city in Florida we thought was on the rise providing exciting opportunities for recreation, careers, fun living etc. Don't get me wrong, I am sure it has many of those characteristics. We also decided to attend the Jaguar/Browns game. Talk about the hood, North Jacksonville is daunting. One of the highest crime areas per capita in the US. Sorry Gene, but my point is not to single out any one city but to use it as an example in addition to St.Louis that illustrates all the major US cities.
To answer the articles author's question, if Michel Brown were to have grown up in Bowling Green, he would still have been a Punk Bully who thought he could take advantage of society. His parental upbringing, or lack thereof, would have insured that.
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7t9l82
Well-known member
Jen, the person who questioned your conservatism is a Pinhead. Well Said, anytime your in Florida i will buy you a cup of coffee. And if i make it to Vegas again i will do the same.
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Oh shoot, you drove right by my location in Orange Park, this burb is full of retired .mil types and working stiffs, except for one ATT engineer in his 40's it's all guys my age, retarred....lots of American Flags flown....
IronJen
Formerly known as VegasJen
Thanks. I'm afraid you're absolutely correct though. Case in point. Yesterday while coming out of Walmart (I know, I know. I don't know why I do this to myself) I overheard a "woman of color" on her phone. I quote, "how close you is to my house?"
:huh:
Thanks for that. But if you make it to Vegas, it's my treat. Those are the rules.
MYBAD79
Moderator
Sam Cogley
Well-known member
One of these days I'll figure out how people who know so much about cars can be so clueless about everything else in the universe.
Sam,
If in the case your defending the protesters. Clueless? I know how, what would be the word abusive/controlling/pricks/******** a cop can be. I think most of us do. But I don't attempt to stand toe to toe with one. They have a rough job to do, that I would never apply for! I think these communities think they are a special abuse centers. In some ways yes, but look at the flip side. Look what they the cops deal with. It's a power struggle between the law and public. If someone wants to go hang their hat on abuse? Maybe the shooting of Tamir Rice the on the west side of Cleveland is one. Because this one looks and sounds suspicious. They've already caught the po po in a lie.
Ralphy
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officers_wait.html
If in the case your defending the protesters. Clueless? I know how, what would be the word abusive/controlling/pricks/******** a cop can be. I think most of us do. But I don't attempt to stand toe to toe with one. They have a rough job to do, that I would never apply for! I think these communities think they are a special abuse centers. In some ways yes, but look at the flip side. Look what they the cops deal with. It's a power struggle between the law and public. If someone wants to go hang their hat on abuse? Maybe the shooting of Tamir Rice the on the west side of Cleveland is one. Because this one looks and sounds suspicious. They've already caught the po po in a lie.
Ralphy
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officers_wait.html
Bullshark
Well-known member
Sam Your comment regarding "Clueless" is a double edge sword. I grew up in that neighborhood. Road my bike, cruised the Steak & Shakes, the whole nine yards. Even got in trouble a few times with the law as I know teenagers have a way of doing. Never once did I or anyone I knew choose a cop. And btw, that was an era when young people had a problem with authority. I watched that neighborhood gradually go to **** in a hand-basket so please don't judge from that nice little college town u live in. I think this facebook post, by a black football player btw, sums it up better than anything I can provide. Most of you have probably seen this by now, but here it is anyway.
At some point while I was playing or preparing to play Monday Night Football, the news broke about the Ferguson Decision. After trying to figure out how I felt, I decided to write it down. Here are my thoughts:
I'M ANGRY because the stories of injustice that have been passed down for generations seem to be continuing before our very eyes.
I'M FRUSTRATED, because pop culture, music and movies glorify these types of police citizen altercations and promote an invincible attitude that continues to get young men killed in real life, away from safety movie sets and music studios.
I'M FEARFUL because in the back of my mind I know that although I'm a law abiding citizen I could still be looked upon as a "threat" to those who don't know me. So I will continue to have to go the extra mile to earn the benefit of the doubt.
I'M EMBARRASSED because the looting, violent protests, and law breaking only confirm, and in the minds of many, validate, the stereotypes and thus the inferior treatment.
I'M SAD, because another young life was lost from his family, the racial divide has widened, a community is in shambles, accusations, insensitivity hurt and hatred are boiling over, and we may never know the truth about what happened that day.
I'M SYMPATHETIC, because I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what happened. Maybe Darren Wilson acted within his rights and duty as an officer of the law and killed Michael Brown in self defense like any of us would in the circumstance. Now he has to fear the backlash against himself and his loved ones when he was only doing his job. What a horrible thing to endure. OR maybe he provoked Michael and ignited the series of events that led to him eventually murdering the young man to prove a point.
I'M OFFENDED, because of the insulting comments I've seen that are not only insensitive but dismissive to the painful experiences of others.
I'M CONFUSED, because I don't know why it's so hard to obey a policeman. You will not win!!! And I don't know why some policeman abuse their power. Power is a responsibility, not a weapon to brandish and lord over the populace.
I'M INTROSPECTIVE, because sometimes I want to take "our" side without looking at the facts in situations like these. Sometimes I feel like it's us against them. Sometimes I'm just as prejudiced as people I point fingers at. And that's not right. How can I look at white skin and make assumptions but not want assumptions made about me? That's not right.
I'M HOPELESS, because I've lived long enough to expect things like this to continue to happen. I'm not surprised and at some point my little children are going to inherit the weight of being a minority and all that it entails.
I'M HOPEFUL, because I know that while we still have race issues in America, we enjoy a much different normal than those of our parents and grandparents. I see it in my personal relationships with teammates, friends and mentors. And it's a beautiful thing.
I'M ENCOURAGED, because ultimately the problem is not a SKIN problem, it is a SIN problem. SIN is the reason we rebel against authority. SIN is the reason we abuse our authority. SIN is the reason we are racist, prejudiced and lie to cover for our own. SIN is the reason we riot, loot and burn. BUT I'M ENCOURAGED because God has provided a solution for sin through the his son Jesus and with it, a transformed heart and mind. One that's capable of looking past the outward and seeing what's truly important in every human being. The cure for the Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice and Eric Garner tragedies is not education or exposure. It's the Gospel. So, finally, I'M ENCOURAGED because the Gospel gives mankind hope.
------------------
It is unfortunate this all happened in St.Louis, it doesn't deserve all this. It could have happened anywhere and unfortunately I'm pretty sure it does.
Clueless? I think the only clueless ones are those that think you could have ANY kind of logical or reasonable discussion with a group so emotionally disturbed that they're incapable of seeing the damage they're doing to themselves. Burning/looting your own neighborhood is not going to fix much.
Because of that, I have no issues making fun of things like "Pants up, don't loot" or that the leader of the "F#@k the Police" rally gets her car stolen during the protest. I wonder if she filed a police report?
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...s-car-stolen-during-the-fck-the-police-rally/
Because of that, I have no issues making fun of things like "Pants up, don't loot" or that the leader of the "F#@k the Police" rally gets her car stolen during the protest. I wonder if she filed a police report?
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...s-car-stolen-during-the-fck-the-police-rally/
IronJen
Formerly known as VegasJen
Hey Sam, you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, you're the one who's clueless?
Just asking.
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
I spent 53 years in the Wash DC burbs, grew up with guns, motor carts, hotrods, etc.....started working on car about age ten.....back when the city was run by AMERICANS, not the communists.....got tired of it in '97 and moved to Florida.....prime mover was snow and arthritis.....
I am well clued in to DC polyticks and know more than anyone on any Corvette group/forum about it all, from day one at my age ~12 or so.....
Met too many people from too many various .gov departments, most of them upper level 'mgmt.'......and heard too many comments over the years.....personal friends working in the inner sanctums of WAY upper management nuff said....
Getting to the point I being age 70 now, I really into just posting the truth, and not into any fights the way I was.....
I should write a book, but love to co-author with an old friend.....Who's father was a cabinet officer during the FDR admin.....through WW2 I believe....
:crutches:
Yeah Gary and rule #1, non minorities don't and can't understand. We're all clueless. It goes along with the white privilege don't you know? Still looking for mine however! Other than the privilege to bust my ass to get ahead.
Ralphy
Ralphy
Sam Cogley
Well-known member
I'm not an adherent to his religious beliefs, but overall I'm in 100% agreement with what he has to say. It's similar to MLK Jr.'s speech from 14 March 1968. I can certainly understand why people would be so pissed off as to riot, feeling that their voice has no other way to be heard, while at the same time understanding that it's usually very counterproductive. The major exception would be the King riots in LA - the attention focused on the corrupt mess of the LAPD in the aftermath led to massive and necessary changes.
The problems of robber baron-esque levels of wealth inequality, and what has essentially turned into a criminalization of being poor, go beyond racial boundaries, but for various reasons they tend to hit minorities harder and earlier than poor Caucasians. That said, when I was still an assistant prosecutor I saw first hand just how damaging the mess we've made of the legal system has become to many people.
Did you see the article about the one police lieutenant in Ferguson who has been talking to the protesters, with positive results?
I consider that all the time. Then I re-analyze the situation and verify that I was just being paranoid. :flash:
Kid Vette
Master-Baiter
Interesting how the latest rant of liberals/progressives/democrats is "income equality". But where do you find the most egregious examples of income inequality? Right here in Kalifornia where Democrats control all the statewide offices and both branches of the legislature. It is their policies that are driving income inequality. :crap:
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Hell, they do THAT Nationwide......all the 60's feel good crap Kennedy put forward....17 trillion spent for what???
Sam, what's the saying of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expect different results. These people, the poor if they don't change "THEIR" ways. They will still be where they are today. What it seems "THEY" want is someone to do it for them. I guess when you have a government seeming to do it, no change will happen. Look at all the help we as a country have provided how much have we spent? This great social experiment has been going on for over a half century for crying out loud!
Ralphy
Ralphy
Bullshark
Well-known member
Damn CNN!! They and the rest of the news media are more than half the problem. Headlines, 15 arrests in Ferguson last night. Actually there were 16 reported by local tv. 15 were from out of town, 9 from NY, California etc. No mention of that fact by CNN. Wish those low life **** bags would go crap in their own bed.
Sam Cogley
Well-known member
The corporate media is not good for you...or anyone. Except the corporations who own it. :banghead:
Sam Cogley
Well-known member
People need jobs, and jobs that they can actually get to with available transportation (be it their feet, cars that may not be in the best repair, the city bus, whatever). There have been several studies which have proven that consciously or unconsciously, there is a racial bias in hiring. The exact same resume, with a name that sounds "white" or "black" attached, will get different responses. Poor, rural, white communities are suffering a lot of the same problems (while an assistant prosecutor, I worked in areas that were similar socioeconomically to the poor black urban areas you see on TV), and having similar crime issues. That doesn't make the news, because the news "story" is "scary black people."
According to FBI statistics, a black male between the ages of 18-29 is 21x more likely to be shot by police than a white male in the same age group, despite similar levels of criminal activity. Black Americans, especially males, get sent to jail for things (like possession of relatively small amounts of pot) that often don't even end up with charges, or with charges being dismissed/pled down, when a white person is involved. Crack cocaine still has higher sentences attached than powder, despite being chemically identical. The difference is that white Wall Street bankers don't use crack. I've waded through the numbers several times over the years out of professional curiosity, and they're depressing.
I'm not in favor of giving anyone special favors, I'm in favor of equality. Something that we are not doing a very good job of in this country.
The people rioting in Ferguson and elsewhere have a whole lot more reason to be pissed off and acting out than the riots you see after a sports team wins or loses a championship, that insane pumpkin festival mess out east this year, etc.
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Bullshark
Well-known member
:bs: Sam, that's a piss poor attempt to justify actions that have no place in our society today. They may have a reason to be pissed off in their mind, but absolutely no reason to riot and burn and break the law. Better read that football player's post again.
Sam really that's it? Maybe since it's black women that are probably having one of the largest growths in the work force. Your answer doesn't hold water? In fact it's many of these black women that will say they are fed up with black males.
Sam said, "Black Americans, especially males, get sent to jail for things (like possession of relatively small amounts of pot) that often don't even end up with charges, or with charges being dismissed/pled down, that whites just don't."
Did you ever consider black males may tend to be more likely to be repeat offenders. Even often having multiple charges of other offenses. You don't go to jail for small amounts of pot in America Sam. I was surprised to hear the black mayor of Atlanta that said he wants to close the revolving door of the jails. He wants to lock the key on these offenders. So Sam go call him and tell him he's all wrong.
Ralphy
Sam said, "Black Americans, especially males, get sent to jail for things (like possession of relatively small amounts of pot) that often don't even end up with charges, or with charges being dismissed/pled down, that whites just don't."
Did you ever consider black males may tend to be more likely to be repeat offenders. Even often having multiple charges of other offenses. You don't go to jail for small amounts of pot in America Sam. I was surprised to hear the black mayor of Atlanta that said he wants to close the revolving door of the jails. He wants to lock the key on these offenders. So Sam go call him and tell him he's all wrong.
Ralphy
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Sam Cogley
Well-known member
One big problem is that incarceration facilities, be they county jails or state prisons, are often a breeding ground for gang activity and criminal activity. On top of that, it's become so hard for someone to turn their life around with a conviction on their record that it's almost guaranteed that some will return to criminal activity.
People who are consistently violent need to be locked up. We need to figure out ways of diverting those who are caught for low-level criminal activity from committing future acts through rehabilitation programs or similar actions, and try to figure out why we have an issue with criminal activity not seen in other industrialized nations in the first place.
The incarceration rate in America is the highest on the planet, even over tyrannical regimes like the Chinese, Russians, and Iranians. That's an indication that something is seriously out of whack.
And if you think that being black means that someone is automatically more likely to either commit crimes or be a repeat offender, you:
1) might be racist; and/or
2) have never actually looked at the statistics.
For example, white and black youth use marijuana at similar rates. In the hopes that #1 isn't true, and that you're willing to learn from #2, I'll provide some solid information for your review. There's plenty more beyond that, but the numbers don't lie.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/us/marijuana-arrests-four-times-as-likely-for-blacks.html?_r=0
The "drug war" has failed miserably, just as Prohibition did 80 years ago. All it does is fuel and fund criminal gangs.
Also, I can provide plenty of links to information regarding the employment differences between black and white Americans. I look forward to reading the supporting evidence for your arguments.
