Weight reduction: Running out of ideas.

[Kacyc3]

I think I'll try installing this radiator to see if it will package okay, and if it will keep the engine temps under control at speed. I don't have any track days scheduled yet, so this might be the best time to work on it. I believe new mounts can be fabricated pretty easily to adapt this radiator to the radiator support framework. What I don't know off the top of my head is how I'm going to adapt the differing hose sizes (2" ID on the old stuff, to 1 3/8" ID on the radiator) to fit together. Some aluminum tubing pieces welded together is easy enough, but I'd like something that has some barb type ends so that the hoses won't slip off once everything is up to pressure. If anybody has some ideas/suggestions, I'd appreciate hearing them.

Thanks,
Mike

Edit: Did some thinking (should have done that earlier). On my shelf of used parts I have a thermostat housing that uses the same size hose as the radiator (1 3/8"), so I can just use one size hose on the top. The bottom hose will need to be a transition size as the water pump intake (2") is larger than the radiator outlet. I did some math. If I run the whole length of the top hose in 1 3/8", and the majority of the length from the radiator outlet in 1 3/8" hose, making the size transition right near the water pump inlet, I can reduce the hose volume of non-productive water (water that's not picking up heat or dissipating heat) by about .2 gallons, or 1.7 pounds.

If you have a tig welder you can tack mig wire to the alum to provide an ridge to hold the hose on. we did it on my radiator.

 

[69427]

I think I'll try installing this radiator to see if it will package okay, and if it will keep the engine temps under control at speed. I don't have any track days scheduled yet, so this might be the best time to work on it. I believe new mounts can be fabricated pretty easily to adapt this radiator to the radiator support framework. What I don't know off the top of my head is how I'm going to adapt the differing hose sizes (2" ID on the old stuff, to 1 3/8" ID on the radiator) to fit together. Some aluminum tubing pieces welded together is easy enough, but I'd like something that has some barb type ends so that the hoses won't slip off once everything is up to pressure. If anybody has some ideas/suggestions, I'd appreciate hearing them.

Thanks,
Mike

Edit: Did some thinking (should have done that earlier). On my shelf of used parts I have a thermostat housing that uses the same size hose as the radiator (1 3/8"), so I can just use one size hose on the top. The bottom hose will need to be a transition size as the water pump intake (2") is larger than the radiator outlet. I did some math. If I run the whole length of the top hose in 1 3/8", and the majority of the length from the radiator outlet in 1 3/8" hose, making the size transition right near the water pump inlet, I can reduce the hose volume of non-productive water (water that's not picking up heat or dissipating heat) by about .2 gallons, or 1.7 pounds.

If you have a tig welder you can tack mig wire to the alum to provide an ridge to hold the hose on. we did it on my radiator.

I like that idea. Thanks man. :thumbs:

 

[vette427sbc]

I think I'll try installing this radiator to see if it will package okay, and if it will keep the engine temps under control at speed. I don't have any track days scheduled yet, so this might be the best time to work on it. I believe new mounts can be fabricated pretty easily to adapt this radiator to the radiator support framework. What I don't know off the top of my head is how I'm going to adapt the differing hose sizes (2" ID on the old stuff, to 1 3/8" ID on the radiator) to fit together. Some aluminum tubing pieces welded together is easy enough, but I'd like something that has some barb type ends so that the hoses won't slip off once everything is up to pressure. If anybody has some ideas/suggestions, I'd appreciate hearing them.

Thanks,
Mike

Edit: Did some thinking (should have done that earlier). On my shelf of used parts I have a thermostat housing that uses the same size hose as the radiator (1 3/8"), so I can just use one size hose on the top. The bottom hose will need to be a transition size as the water pump intake (2") is larger than the radiator outlet. I did some math. If I run the whole length of the top hose in 1 3/8", and the majority of the length from the radiator outlet in 1 3/8" hose, making the size transition right near the water pump inlet, I can reduce the hose volume of non-productive water (water that's not picking up heat or dissipating heat) by about .2 gallons, or 1.7 pounds.

That is some very outside-the-box thinking for a pretty damn good weight reduction... :thumbs:

I was thinking you might be able to find an exhaust pipe reducer... But something with a smoother transition. Im not sure what the coolant flow is, but going small to big on the suction side might cause cavitation into the pump

 

[rtj]

Some aluminum tubing pieces welded together is easy enough, but I'd like something that has some barb type ends so that the hoses won't slip off once everything is up to pressure. If anybody has some ideas/suggestions, I'd appreciate hearing them.

Thanks,
Mike

.

A lot of racers weld alum AN fittings on their rad. If you want light hoses, use nylon overbraid instead of SS overbraid hose.

Dropping the dia. too much will drop flow rate.

I bought a bunch of 16an, and it is light but pricy $$$.

https://www.jegs.com/i/Vibrant-Performance/231/11995/10002/-1


Vibrant Performance Nylon Braided Flex Hose -20 AN Size $20/ft

On a rad SS might be safer.

 

[phantomjock]

Any joy in using some of this stuff:

Certainly cheaper than the -AN SS.

its over at https://www.anfittingsdirect.com/oi....html?osCsid=a83cb982a5142bfec2d505420e760768

cheers - Jim

 

[rtj]

Jim

I have used it, but the end connections are funky. It uses double hose clamps each end. Maybe weld on an fittings.

Here is SS overbraid.
https://images.app.goo.gl/3Yx9JYoK1osMQz498

 

[69427]

Some aluminum tubing pieces welded together is easy enough, but I'd like something that has some barb type ends so that the hoses won't slip off once everything is up to pressure. If anybody has some ideas/suggestions, I'd appreciate hearing them.

Thanks,
Mike

.

A lot of racers weld alum AN fittings on their rad. If you want light hoses, use nylon overbraid instead of SS overbraid hose.

Dropping the dia. too much will drop flow rate.

I bought a bunch of 16an, and it is light but pricy $$$.

https://www.jegs.com/i/Vibrant-Performance/231/11995/10002/-1


Vibrant Performance Nylon Braided Flex Hose -20 AN Size $20/ft

On a rad SS might be safer.

AN hose won't work for me for two reasons. It doesn't look stock (I like the sleeper look), and AN 20 is smaller than the ports/hoses on the "new" radiator.

 

[BBShark]

Never seen one of these but maybe this would work (also a reviewer talks about a Gates heat shrink sleeve) :

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spe-7814/reviews/

 

[69427]

Never seen one of these but maybe this would work (also a reviewer talks about a Gates heat shrink sleeve) :

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spe-7814/reviews/

Well, that pretty much looks like the damn size I need to save myself some work, along with Kacyc3's suggestion about welding in a wire to form a ridge/barb on the tube connectors. Thanks, man!

 

[69427]

Test fit.

I pulled the current radiator out this afternoon, and did a trial fit with the "new" one. Hot damn, it fit! The inlet tube looks like it will clear the left UCA, and the outlet looks like it will clear the sway bar. I expect to have to use an elbow or two near the ports though to get the hoses pointing in the same basic direction as the factory hoses.

I've got to make some cushion mount modifications to get this radiator to be fastened in by the stock mounts. The top two mounts will be easy, the bottom two will take a bit more cleverness (which I'm frequently in short supply of).

Now, if the radiator will just cooperate and not be too light in the cooling job. I do have about 80% of the grille inlet area currently blocked off to reduce the amount of air going through the radiator and potentially ending up under the car, causing lift. If I encounter a cooling problem on the first track outing, I suppose I can just start opening the grill area to see if that will help. One of the upsides of running just a modest horsepower engine is that the cooling requirements should be easier than what the 600 horsepower crowd has to deal with.

A side issue question in my head is what is the thermal resistance/impact of painting the radiator rear surface black. I want the radiator to be "unnoticeable" if I have the hood up, hence the black paint. The up side is I can leave the front side, that nobody sees, unpainted.

 

[phantomjock]

I was just going through yesterday's mail... There was a flyer from Coleman Racing. Thought this "might apply."

Have you considered a new driveshaft? They have 2.5, 3, 3.5" dia Aluminum shafts. The 2.5 are rated to 450HP. Now, if you want to shop at Summit, they've got some that are Torque Rated to 500 FT#s, and I see Jegs and Speedway have some in CF. There has to be some (weight) savings there and probably get the CF at about $550, the Aluminum ones significantly less. At Coleman, the 3" advertises 8# weight savings over steel

I'm going to be in the market eventually myself. Just buy a new one rather than mess with a cut-down, machining effort.

They're also advertising lightweight Harmonic Balancers, FWIW. Sorry no coupons on either!

Cheers - Jim

 

[69427]

I was just going through yesterday's mail... There was a flyer from Coleman Racing. Thought this "might apply."

Have you considered a new driveshaft? They have 2.5, 3, 3.5" dia Aluminum shafts. The 2.5 are rated to 450HP. Now, if you want to shop at Summit, they've got some that are Torque Rated to 500 FT#s, and I see Jegs and Speedway have some in CF. There has to be some (weight) savings there and probably get the CF at about $550, the Aluminum ones significantly less. At Coleman, the 3" advertises 8# weight savings over steel

I'm going to be in the market eventually myself. Just buy a new one rather than mess with a cut-down, machining effort.

They're also advertising lightweight Harmonic Balancers, FWIW. Sorry no coupons on either!

Cheers - Jim

I've been looking at aluminum driveshaft options for quite some time, but without success. My stock 2" steel driveshaft weighs 10# (with u-joints). The aluminum shafts I've seen don't have much weight difference (to offset the cost), and their bigger diameter usually results in a larger MoI (bad for accels and decels, but the lighter weight is better in the corners).

To make the economics work, I would need to find a cheap used shaft, and then have it shortened to fit. I've looked at C4 driveshafts, but they are already too short.

I'll take a look at the balancers. Thanks.

 

[69427]

Lightweight balancers

I took a look at the Coleman website, and if I understand the selection, they all appear to be for small blocks.

I've got a Fluidamper on mine. I like its design and construction, but if I see a lighter weight BBC part of comparable performance, I might be persuaded to sell and replace mine. Your post has sparked my interest in seeing if there's any decent candidates out there.

 

[69427]

"New" radiator installed.

Got the mounts fabricated and the radiator installed. Fits well. I painted the rear surface (only) with Eastwood radiator black paint. Looks natural, and less eye catching now. I've got the hose shapes worked out, and am working on the coupling adapters at the moment. Hoping to get the engine fired up this weekend. If the radiator works sufficiently while the car is moving, I'll spend some time fabricating a thin aluminum fan shroud for low speed operation.

 

[BBShark]

What about those jute mats they put under interior carpet? I'm not sure if the early C3's had it or not or if it's very heavy. I have taken it out of 60's and 70's cars and sort of remember it has being pretty heavy considering the amount of it.

Probably not to awful of a job to remove but could take some time. Maybe a winter project?

 

[69427]

What about those jute mats they put under interior carpet? I'm not sure if the early C3's had it or not or if it's very heavy. I have taken it out of 60's and 70's cars and sort of remember it has being pretty heavy considering the amount of it.

Probably not to awful of a job to remove but could take some time. Maybe a winter project?

I'll confess I haven't looked closely at what's under the carpet (since about 1979 when I put the new carpeting in). I'll take a peek at it and see what things look like. Thanks.

 

[69427]

Got the radiator sealed up around the periphery, the hoses all pieced together and the coolant filled up again (no shroud yet, but not planning on too much time idling in the driveway). Just gotta get a few gallons of fresh fuel to get me around the block a few times to see how this radiator cools/works. It's like 95* here lately, so this ought to be a decent test.

Found some grade 5, 3/8" x 10" bolts the other day, and swapped out the rear spring hanger bolts. A touch over four ounces per bolt reduction, so a bit over half a pound off there. I'm still trying to find some grade 8 bolts for this application, and will swap these out when I find some. (Long boring story of my experiences so far trying to get some bolts online.)

 

[phantomjock]

Didn't look to see if I already offered this. But; "While You're At It..."
This was under the rear section of my '78:

Sound deadening material.
Happy Hunting.

Cheers - Jim

 

[69427]

Didn't look to see if I already offered this. But; "While You're At It..."
This was under the rear section of my '78:

Sound deadening material.
Happy Hunting.

Cheers - Jim

I appreciate the info/data. :thumbs:

 

[69427]

Steering column weight.

Was looking at a steering column I got from Gene a few years back. It's the standard column, which is lighter than my t&t column. While figuring out what small parts I need to procure sometime, I took a magnet to the column to see what was steel and what was aluminum. The top/visible stuff is aluminum, and the shafts and tubing/mounts are steel. It looks like it would be pretty straightforward to replace the tubing/mount section in aluminum, and take perhaps five pounds off this column (plus the weight of the t&t mechanism).

Anyone here a quasi expert on steering columns? I need to scrounge up some odds and ends parts for this project, particularly the key switch and the wheel/horn mounting hardware. With the bolt-on steering wheel (versus the press-on type, I'm curious if these parts are hard to come upon.

Thanks for any help.

 

[69427]

BBC w/p pulley weight?

I've got the stock three groove water pump pulley (2.6#) on my engine. The front groove was used for the original A.I.R. pump, which seized up on me about a month after I bought the car. I'm presently using the front groove to run the small alternator that I moved over to the right side. I'm just pondering moving the alternator rearward two grooves distance, and using a hopefully lighter two groove pulley. Anyone have a two groove BBC w/p pulley that they could give me a reasonably accurate weight on?

Thanks for any help.

 

[69427]

First test drive of 2019.

Took the car out for a half hour drive around town to see how everything is performing. Ambient Temperature was mid nineties. The "new" used/lighter aluminum ps pump seems to work well, and the smaller/lighter radiator seemed to be up to the job. I've got a 195* thermostat in the engine, and the coolant temps were the same 200* that the engine usually runs at. Very relieved about that, as I hate to do a modification, and then immediately remove it if it didn't work. I did one minor additional change with this radiator swap. For the past several years I have had all three front grills closed off to reduce airflow going into the engine compartment and ending up under the car. I removed the center grill and blocking plate over the winter so that I had an access hole to reach in and install the ps cooler. I thought I'd play it safe with this first drive with the smaller radiator, and allow a bit more air to flow through the system, so I just installed the center grill again, but without the blocking plate. Once I get some track time I'll see if I can block off some of the center grill again.

I took a chance with this radiator, and it appears I got lucky.

 

[vette427sbc]

Was looking at a steering column I got from Gene a few years back. It's the standard column, which is lighter than my t&t column. While figuring out what small parts I need to procure sometime, I took a magnet to the column to see what was steel and what was aluminum. The top/visible stuff is aluminum, and the shafts and tubing/mounts are steel. It looks like it would be pretty straightforward to replace the tubing/mount section in aluminum, and take perhaps five pounds off this column (plus the weight of the t&t mechanism).

Anyone here a quasi expert on steering columns? I need to scrounge up some odds and ends parts for this project, particularly the key switch and the wheel/horn mounting hardware. With the bolt-on steering wheel (versus the press-on type, I'm curious if these parts are hard to come upon.

Thanks for any help.

My stock column with steering wheel and stainless steel u joint on the end is 21 lbs... I suspect you are right in that replacing the tubing with aluminum would work well, but being that’s your key is in the column, I think the dense potmetal/aluminum “bell” (end that tapers up to the wheel hub) might be difficult to replace with something a little more empty inside. I’ll report back when my ProLite column comes in... they are claiming 6lbs (no wheel or ujoint though)
If you need any parts or dimensions from my stock one, let me know...

 

[69427]

Was looking at a steering column I got from Gene a few years back. It's the standard column, which is lighter than my t&t column. While figuring out what small parts I need to procure sometime, I took a magnet to the column to see what was steel and what was aluminum. The top/visible stuff is aluminum, and the shafts and tubing/mounts are steel. It looks like it would be pretty straightforward to replace the tubing/mount section in aluminum, and take perhaps five pounds off this column (plus the weight of the t&t mechanism).

Anyone here a quasi expert on steering columns? I need to scrounge up some odds and ends parts for this project, particularly the key switch and the wheel/horn mounting hardware. With the bolt-on steering wheel (versus the press-on type, I'm curious if these parts are hard to come upon.

Thanks for any help.

My stock column with steering wheel and stainless steel u joint on the end is 21 lbs... I suspect you are right in that replacing the tubing with aluminum would work well, but being that’s your key is in the column, I think the dense potmetal/aluminum “bell” (end that tapers up to the wheel hub) might be difficult to replace with something a little more empty inside. I’ll report back when my ProLite column comes in... they are claiming 6lbs (no wheel or ujoint though)
If you need any parts or dimensions from my stock one, let me know...

I appreciate any future help.

My plan is to just replace the tubing parts that are not visible when the column is bolted up. If this project is workable, I would retain the actual steering shaft, and all the aluminum/potmetal stuff that is present between the steering wheel and the dash/instrument pad.

 

[mfain]

FWIW, this is the direction I went. On my C-1, I started with a standard C-3 column. The lightest column I could find was from Woodward, so I replaced the main body and shaft, but I kept the C-3 ignition, turn signals, etc. I built aluminum brackets to hold the ignition switch to the column (see photos). Then, as the car evolved from dual-use to track only, I remove the ignition switch assembly entirely. The heaviest parts are the switch housing and the pot metal piece that the steering wheel bolts to. I did make a fiberglass replacement for the pot metal piece when I no longer needed it to secure the wheel. What I ended up with is a light-weight Woodward column (with a splined, collapsible shaft, Woodward's light weight firewall bearing, and a light weight LaCarra steering wheel adapted to a Woodward quick release with an adapter from Joe's racing products.

Pappy

 

[69427]

Wasting time at the truck stop.

Stopped at a truck stop to get the car weighed. I went in and explained to the cashier gal what I wanted. Two scale measurements: I'll straddle the car over two scale segments to get the front and rear axle weights, and then when they got that measurement, I'll turn the car sideways, straddling the two scale segments again to get the left and right side weights. Spent an hour there moving the car, talking to the gal on the intercom and then in person, and then doing it all again because she didn't actually understand the first time. After four measurements, and the car puking coolant while idling on the scale waiting for the gal on the intercom to confirm that she got both measurements, I went back inside the truck stop and talked to her again (my third trip in there). She still couldn't figure out that I wanted two different type measurements (front and rear, and left and right), not just two half vehicle measurements. I finally gave up, and settled for the left/right measurement, because for reasons she couldn't explain, as soon as I moved the car to put it sideways, the machine apparently erased my front/rear weight reading. The Left/Right reading (with an eighth tank of fuel and no driver) was 1380/1340 for a 2720# total. I had hoped with the Front/Rear reading available, I could do some math and figure out the corner weights too.

I need to find a good deal on some wheel scales. The savings in time and frustration certainly might help offset the cost.

 

[phantomjock]

There are some digital postal scales that get to 660# each corner pretty cheap (eBay) - but won't make your total. Else, Proform scale prices keep dropping - now under $800 for wired versions. Racing Junk has none just now. Occasionally see some on the racing pages. I'm going to get 2 more 660s for the front end and use 4x 440s on the rear - put a piece of ply between the 2 on the rear.

LEFT RIGHT
[]xxxx[] and []xxxx[]
legend: [] scale xxxx ply

Cheers - Jim

 

[69427]

There are some digital postal scales that get to 660# each corner pretty cheap (eBay) - but won't make your total. Else, Proform scale prices keep dropping - now under $800 for wired versions. Racing Junk has none just now. Occasionally see some on the racing pages. I'm going to get 2 more 660s for the front end and use 4x 440s on the rear - put a piece of ply between the 2 on the rear.

LEFT RIGHT
[]xxxx[] and []xxxx[]
legend: [] scale xxxx ply

Cheers - Jim

Thanks. Gives me something to kick around for options.

 

[69427]

...................

What about a smaller single core radiator with the plastic side tanks like a C5? Less water weight, and at least a few pounds far up front. Your cooling system would have to be pretty damn efficient to keep a BB cool though...

Damn! Was looking through this old thread, and I see you were several years ahead of me with this idea. :thumbs:

 

[vette427sbc]

...................

What about a smaller single core radiator with the plastic side tanks like a C5? Less water weight, and at least a few pounds far up front. Your cooling system would have to be pretty damn efficient to keep a BB cool though...

Damn! Was looking through this old thread, and I see you were several years ahead of me with this idea. :thumbs:

So many years ago that even I forgot about that idea! :crylol: