Steering column shaft with rack & pinion

M

macx

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Joined
Jan 27, 2011
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I've read a bunch about various ways to improve the power steering, incl
the Ferguson modified Jeep type box that will bolt on in place of the oem
box and comes with some type of adapter to bolt up the rest of the stock
steering links, to of course rack and pinion.

One thing that seems to always be part of it, esp with the rack and pinion,
is pushing the steering shaft back up into the column / tube some amount.
I believe I also read one comment that said that removes some of the
telescoping feature in the steering - ??

Just wondering but I suppose it's major surgery to remove that shaft and
cut the steering wheel end of it a little shorter by the amount the steering
gear end has to be pushed back up into the column / tube?

I've seen some posts on steering column rebuild but at the time didn't think
to read those to see if that would be more work than it's worth.

Anybody know if it's possible to shorten the shaft, and how much work
would be involved - if it's worth it?

Thx!
 
The Tele part up top only moves like 2-3" worth, and is NOT affected by anything going on in the lower section, especially the collapse of the column shaft...two entirely separate sections of the column....have to see a blow up diagram to see that.....

I have a 78+ shark column in my '72, and pulled it back to me about 3/4 inch and leave the tele all the way extended, hate reaching forward too much , but I modifies my seating on account of being too tall, and getting olde/ornery....

:smash::surrender::crap:
 
mrvette said:
The Tele part up top only moves like 2-3" worth, and is NOT affected by anything going on in the lower section, especially the collapse of the column shaft...two entirely separate sections of the column....have to see a blow up diagram to see that.....

:smash::surrender::crap:
Click to expand...

I appreciate that info.
 
I hope that you aren't suggesting cutting a section out of the steering shaft and butt welding the parts back together.

At Saginaw Steering Gear Division we had very competent UAW skilled trade welders. Even with those skilled people we NEVER allowed butt welded parts that were directly involved with steering the car. (Even on a prototype basis.) Install a sleeve, pin it on both sides and then weld the parts together, (as long as we had a mechanical joint along with the weld), that was OK.

It is very safe to just telescope the lower end of the steering shaft back into the column. There is a large amount of overlap between the solid upper shaft and the hollow lower shaft. They were originally held together with injected plastic material. The worst thing that can happen is that your steering shaft might develop a slight amount of looseness because you have to shear that injected plastic in order to telescope the lower shaft up into the column.

Jim
 
Yeh, Jim, my welder is a pretty damn good fabricator men, heavy industry crap....and so he insisted on drilling holes and going nutz on my steering install years ago, even that intermediate shaft between the column and the rack universals...you maybe remember I did my rack with just two universals....

:clobbered:;)
 
JIML82 said:
I hope that you aren't suggesting cutting a section out of the steering shaft and butt welding the parts back together.

At Saginaw Steering Gear Division we had very competent UAW skilled trade welders. Even with those skilled people we NEVER allowed butt welded parts that were directly involved with steering the car. (Even on a prototype basis.) Install a sleeve, pin it on both sides and then weld the parts together, (as long as we had a mechanical joint along with the weld), that was OK.

It is very safe to just telescope the lower end of the steering shaft back into the column. There is a large amount of overlap between the solid upper shaft and the hollow lower shaft. They were originally held together with injected plastic material. The worst thing that can happen is that your steering shaft might develop a slight amount of looseness because you have to shear that injected plastic in order to telescope the lower shaft up into the column.

Jim
Click to expand...

With all that said you would think it's a very conservative design. But they rely on a plastic ball to hold two sections of a shaft together to function as a U joint. The "centering sphere".

I don't know if anyone has heard of any failures as plastic gets brittle after 30 years. The other question is how much torque can that plastic piece handle?

http://jimshea.corvettefaq.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ttdisasminstrpic_2rev26de2009.pdf
 
rodeck350 said:
JIML82 said:
I hope that you aren't suggesting cutting a section out of the steering shaft and butt welding the parts back together.

At Saginaw Steering Gear Division we had very competent UAW skilled trade welders. Even with those skilled people we NEVER allowed butt welded parts that were directly involved with steering the car. (Even on a prototype basis.) Install a sleeve, pin it on both sides and then weld the parts together, (as long as we had a mechanical joint along with the weld), that was OK.

It is very safe to just telescope the lower end of the steering shaft back into the column. There is a large amount of overlap between the solid upper shaft and the hollow lower shaft. They were originally held together with injected plastic material. The worst thing that can happen is that your steering shaft might develop a slight amount of looseness because you have to shear that injected plastic in order to telescope the lower shaft up into the column.

Jim
Click to expand...

With all that said you would think it's a very conservative design. But they rely on a plastic ball to hold two sections of a shaft together to function as a U joint. The "centering sphere".

I don't know if anyone has heard of any failures as plastic gets brittle after 30 years. The other question is how much torque can that plastic piece handle?

http://jimshea.corvettefaq.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ttdisasminstrpic_2rev26de2009.pdf
Click to expand...

When having my column apart 16 years ago, I noted the plastic looked fine, kinda surprising, so I just redid it with yellow bearing grease and it's been there since....figger the column for being a '79 or so....the sucker still feels fine...no roughness or slop.....dunno what else to say....

:clobbered:;)
 
mrvette said:
When having my column apart 16 years ago, I noted the plastic looked fine, kinda surprising, so I just redid it with yellow bearing grease and it's been there since....figger the column for being a '79 or so....the sucker still feels fine...no roughness or slop.....dunno what else to say....

:clobbered:;)
Click to expand...

How can you tell plastic is getting brittle just by looking. That's a trick even for a crack TV repairman.:harhar:

Surprised someone hasn't come up with a metal replacement for the aftermarket.
 
rodeck350 said:
mrvette said:
When having my column apart 16 years ago, I noted the plastic looked fine, kinda surprising, so I just redid it with yellow bearing grease and it's been there since....figger the column for being a '79 or so....the sucker still feels fine...no roughness or slop.....dunno what else to say....

:clobbered:;)
Click to expand...

How can you tell plastic is getting brittle just by looking. That's a trick even for a crack TV repairman.:harhar:

Surprised someone hasn't come up with a metal replacement for the aftermarket.
Click to expand...

The nylon parts I have seen fail in various contraptions, when cleaned off, looked kinda brownish/tan and under a glass I could see evidence of drying looked like stress cracks on the surface....saw nothing like that on this column.....maybe they used the good 'virgin' nylon,...I dunno....


:hissyfit:;)
 
In my over 10 years of responding to questions and comments on about 5 different GM vehicle forums, I have never heard of a problem with the tilt or T&T steering column plastic universal tilt ball.

All Saginaw designed and manufactured steering parts were validated under manual steering loads. So it is obvious that subjecting a steering component to manual steering type loads over a 40 year period is going to be a lot more severe on the parts than "pinky finger" type power steering loads.

However, even the under manual steering laboratory loads (and for the most part those loads were like steering the car with it stopped and the foot on the brakes) the parts would still be completely functional and safe after a "life" test sequence.

For instance, we would test flexible coupling assemblies under manual parking loads and we would eventually grind the stop pins right off of the part. We NEVER saw parts from the field that exhibited more than light polish on the stop pins even on manually steering vehicles. (The only time we saw excessive wear on the stop pins was if the steering column and the gear were so badly misaligned so as to have constant pressure on the pins.) The following severe wear could be found on even power steering vehicles if there was severe misalignment of the gear to column in a rear steer vehicle.
FlexCplgWornStopPins.jpg
If the assembly of the steering column and the gear followed the Mandatory Assembly Sequence in the AIM for the various rear steer GM vehicles, you would never see a part like the above. (Cars with intermediate steering shafts would NEVER show this type of wear since the intermediate shaft prevents the parts from being misaligned.)

Jim
 
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Just to clarify, of course I wasn't advocating any welding.

From reading the one post I saw that suggested pushing the shaft up into
the column would restrict the telescoping feature, I was wondering if removing
the shaft and shortening the inner end and then reinstalling it was necessary
or would alleviate the implied loss of the telescoping feature.

Apparently pushing the shaft up into the column doesn't restrict the telescoping function, so that's good to hear that all that's necessary is to
simply push it back up into the column.
 
If I remember correctly, in the rack conversions I've seen there are two U-joints and a shaft that are used to connect the steering column and the rack. Seems like you could use a shorter shaft between the U-joints and not have to worry about the length of the steering column.
 
damoroso said:
If I remember correctly, in the rack conversions I've seen there are two U-joints and a shaft that are used to connect the steering column and the rack. Seems like you could use a shorter shaft between the U-joints and not have to worry about the length of the steering column.
Click to expand...

RONG!!.....sorry Dave.....when the steering column shaft is in stock position the upper U joint is at an extreme angle.....I forget the degrees a X universal can take, 45? 30? whatever, it's damn close with the thing collapsed, and the Grand Am rack mounted high, and angled up pretty good on the input shaft, which relaxed the upper universal, and put slightly more angle on the lower universal....the rubber coupling and DD shaft I have on my install was used because that is what came outta the junkyard, and it allowed me to mark the position of the intermediate DD shaft, and have it welded....that eliminated any slop.....on the intermediate shaft.....

as it is, I had to ding the oil pan to get it to clear the rack....and bend the rack lines away from the pan.....I did the install with engine outta the car, and talk about some careful measurement shit.....but it WERKS!!!:harhar::harhar::trumpet::trumpet::bounce:
 
mrvette said:
damoroso said:
If I remember correctly, in the rack conversions I've seen there are two U-joints and a shaft that are used to connect the steering column and the rack. Seems like you could use a shorter shaft between the U-joints and not have to worry about the length of the steering column.
Click to expand...

RONG!!.....sorry Dave.....when the steering column shaft is in stock position the upper U joint is at an extreme angle.....I forget the degrees a X universal can take, 45? 30? whatever, it's damn close with the thing collapsed, and the Grand Am rack mounted high, and angled up pretty good on the input shaft, which relaxed the upper universal, and put slightly more angle on the lower universal....the rubber coupling and DD shaft I have on my install was used because that is what came outta the junkyard, and it allowed me to mark the position of the intermediate DD shaft, and have it welded....that eliminated any slop.....on the intermediate shaft.....

as it is, I had to ding the oil pan to get it to clear the rack....and bend the rack lines away from the pan.....I did the install with engine outta the car, and talk about some careful measurement shit.....but it WERKS!!!:harhar::harhar::trumpet::trumpet::bounce:
Click to expand...

Thanks Gene, all the more reason for me to stay with a well working stock power steering. Like we were talking the other day, I'm not gonna be racing the car on a road track, so althought the rack would certianly give a shorter ratio and a better feel, it doesn't seem the return is there for the effort. :beer:
 
damoroso said:
mrvette said:
damoroso said:
If I remember correctly, in the rack conversions I've seen there are two U-joints and a shaft that are used to connect the steering column and the rack. Seems like you could use a shorter shaft between the U-joints and not have to worry about the length of the steering column.
Click to expand...

RONG!!.....sorry Dave.....when the steering column shaft is in stock position the upper U joint is at an extreme angle.....I forget the degrees a X universal can take, 45? 30? whatever, it's damn close with the thing collapsed, and the Grand Am rack mounted high, and angled up pretty good on the input shaft, which relaxed the upper universal, and put slightly more angle on the lower universal....the rubber coupling and DD shaft I have on my install was used because that is what came outta the junkyard, and it allowed me to mark the position of the intermediate DD shaft, and have it welded....that eliminated any slop.....on the intermediate shaft.....

as it is, I had to ding the oil pan to get it to clear the rack....and bend the rack lines away from the pan.....I did the install with engine outta the car, and talk about some careful measurement shit.....but it WERKS!!!:harhar::harhar::trumpet::trumpet::bounce:
Click to expand...

Thanks Gene, all the more reason for me to stay with a well working stock power steering. Like we were talking the other day, I'm not gonna be racing the car on a road track, so althought the rack would certianly give a shorter ratio and a better feel, it doesn't seem the return is there for the effort. :beer:
Click to expand...

:hissyfit::hissyfit::bounce: U need to drive my car, in fact swap rides for a day or so.....never driven a BB vette......

:clobbered::nuts:
 
If you guys don't mind I'll ask another steering question in this same thread? Its almost related with the original question ;)

When I was younger I had a '77 with tilt/telescopic steering column. I was easily able to get a good position for the steering wheel and no problem getting in or out (without ever touching the tilt). Now, that I am 20+ years older I bought a '70 with a non tilt/telescopic column. I feel that the steering wheel is way too close. Well, I am 30+lbs heavier now but I think my arms are still the same length ;) ´

Anyways, I think my arms are almost at 90° angle now while holding the wheel. When getting into the car I need to snake my right knee sideways under the wheel to get in (and I do have a very small steering wheel). Is this normal? IMO not very comfortable. Can the whole steering column be pushed forwards? Is there any optional columns I could replace the original with to make it more comfortable to use? I looked at the Flaming river columns but I think they are not collapsible which is IMO a too big step backwards. What to do?

Ps. I too have a DIY rack&pinion kit.

Ps2. does this look the same length as yours (non tilt/tele)?
14uyqa0.jpg
 
Last edited:
ToniH said:
If you guys don't mind I'll ask another steering question in this same thread? Its almost related with the original question ;)

When I was younger I had a '77 with tilt/telescopic steering column. I was easily able to get a good position for the steering wheel and no problem getting in or out (without ever touching the tilt). Now, that I am 20+ years older I bought a '70 with a non tilt/telescopic column. I feel that the steering wheel is way too close. Well, I am 30+lbs heavier now but I think my arms are still the same length ;) ´

Anyways, I think my arms are almost at 90° angle now while holding the wheel. When getting into the car I need to snake my right knee sideways under the wheel to get in (and I do have a very small steering wheel). Is this normal? IMO not very comfortable. Can the whole steering column be pushed forwards? Is there any optional columns I could replace the original with to make it more comfortable to use? I looked at the Flaming river columns but I think they are not collapsible which is IMO a too big step backwards. What to do?

Ps. I too have a DIY rack&pinion kit.

Ps2. does this look the same length as yours (non tilt/tele)?
14uyqa0.jpg
Click to expand...

Age 67 here, 16 years ago when first bought my '72, it too had a fixed column, and that large wheel, one of the very first swaps was to put in a '78+ column, it was much further way and I was always reaching for the top of the wheel, so some years later, I pulled it back toward me by adding a spacer on the firewall flange, inside....sealed it with RTV....I too have a self made rack install....I much more like the later wheel, and TT.....the TT for ME, was never close enough, but I modded the seating, and other shit to accommodate my 6'5" height....:hi:
 
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