So, what if..............

[big2bird]

Well this certainly is an interesting discussion. I live in an area that is supposed to be ideal for solar power. But....

1. It is VERY expoensive to install. I am not a poor person, but it is WAY beyond my price range.Do you think new nuclear plants are cheaper?

2. The solar panels only provide enough power to run minimal electical devices. I have a brand new energy efficient central air conditioning system and there is NO WAY solar panels can run it. It's not about total generation, it's about peak usage

3. Now that some people have started using solar power the electric company has realized that their profits are down. So they have JACKED UP the price of electricity dramatically FOR EVERYONE. So much for Al Gore's "carbon credits".This conflicts with you saying it is cost prohibitive

4. Most of the solar panel stuff is made OVERSEAS. So it may be a "green job" to make, it but American labor isn't benefitting from it.Do you think Chinese workers install this stuff?

5. No power when the sun goes down. The solution has been battery storage. But that has it's own can of worms when those batteris go bad. You have to dispose of them and they contain all kinds of nasty stuff.That would only apply to a stand alone system, not a grid system

6. For solar power for large locations there are two main problems...

The reasons that solar power plants do not power the world are summed up in two reasons: cost and reliability. Solar plants made of solar cells are extremely expensive to build. Thousands of square feet of solar cells are required to generate enough power for even a very small town. A large city simply doesn’t have enough room for a solar plant, You place them on the roofsor enough money. The second main reason is the unreliability of the plants. If the plant has a few cloudy days, there will be no electricity for the town.Not true if connected to the grid This is not an option for many towns or cities. In the modern age of today, we need to have power 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, not only on sunny days, sometimes at night.

Dep. It's about peak generation, and having peak production during peak usage. Installing peak usage at point of use eliminates building new plants and more transmission lines. That is the Utilities incentive.
We have 2 peak power plants in Anaheim, because it is cheaper than additional lines. Natural gas runs turbines, and this could be replaced by solar POU. They would be retained for power demand, such as cloudy days.
Solar is a SYSTEM COMPONENT, and a replacement for fuel generation.
Ideally, it would be solar by day, and wind/hydro by night.
If fuel burning was not an option, we would find a way to make it work.
Germany is way ahead of us on this front. Once again, foreign countries will lead the way, while we argue what is wrong with it.

 

[BBShark]

All the large, flat roof industries in Riverside and San Bernadino county have been offered FREE solar install, by the utilities, (no tax money).:goodevil:

No tax money? Isn't that where the state of California get it's money?

Here is a list of government funded "green" energy financial incentives for California, must be 50 of them:

http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/index.cfm?re=1&ee=1&spv=0&st=0&srp=1&state=CA

 

[big2bird]

All the large, flat roof industries in Riverside and San Bernadino county have been offered FREE solar install, by the utilities, (no tax money).:goodevil:

No tax money? Isn't that where the state of California get it's money?

Here is a list of government funded "green" energy financial incentives for California, must be 50 of them:

http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/index.cfm?re=1&ee=1&spv=0&st=0&srp=1&state=CA

Read again. Almost all of those are funded by City Munincipal power companies, because it is cost effective, rather than stressing the grid.

 

[GT6Steve]

Living in the desert mentioned above, the Mojave, I have a question for all the greenies pushing solar.

Putting up all these solar panels is going to shade all the desert soil and plantlife below them. Ground temps will change, plant growth rates will change. Essentially the entire ecosystem in that area will be grossly affected but no tree huggers seem to care.

While it's not as dramatic and welcoming as a stand of oaks there is indeed a well developed and delicate environment represented here. It may look barren and wasted to a grasslands guy but there is a serious amount of LIFE in those acres!:tth:

 

[big2bird]

http://www.sce.com/PowerandEnvironment/Renewables/

http://www.ibew.org/articles/10ElectricalWorker/EW1007/03.0710.html

 

[big2bird]

Living in the desert mentioned above, the Mojave, I have a question for all the greenies pushing solar.

Putting up all these solar panels is going to shade all the desert soil and plantlife below them. Ground temps will change, plant growth rates will change. Essentially the entire ecosystem in that area will be grossly affected but no tree huggers seem to care.

While it's not as dramatic and welcoming as a stand of oaks there is indeed a well developed and delicate environment represented here. It may look barren and wasted to a grasslands guy but there is a serious amount of LIFE in those acres!:tth:

Point of usage means on the roof. Why not roof all them casinos with solar?
Just imagine if the Luxor was built of black solar panels instead of just black glass panels?
As for the desert project, I have to agree with you.
I hope the environmental impact study in El Dorado valley was fair and extensive.

 

[BBShark]

All the large, flat roof industries in Riverside and San Bernadino county have been offered FREE solar install, by the utilities, (no tax money).:goodevil:

No tax money? Isn't that where the state of California get it's money?

Here is a list of government funded "green" energy financial incentives for California, must be 50 of them:

http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/index.cfm?re=1&ee=1&spv=0&st=0&srp=1&state=CA

Read again. Almost all of those are funded by City Municipal power companies, because it is cost effective, rather than stressing the grid.

Not true, half if not more are state funded and the municipal appliance credits and insulation credits are tied in with the cash for appliances program. Even if they were ALL funded by municipal electric suppliers, who do you think pays additional costs incurred by the utility? Here is a hint, consumers do.

Anytime a business increases their cost, the consumer pays for it. It's basically a tax (another additional tax).

 

[GT6Steve]

I anxiously await the fuel cell coming to fruition and start moving homes off the grid.

When I enquired about panels two years ago the 1200 sg ft flat roof of my garage was ideally situated. The cost then was $35,000 after rebates and it calculated to a fifteen year payback at the rates of the day.

I didn't do it as the payback exceeded the projected life of the panels. Now, two years later, who knows?

 

[big2bird]

All the large, flat roof industries in Riverside and San Bernadino county have been offered FREE solar install, by the utilities, (no tax money).:goodevil:

No tax money? Isn't that where the state of California get it's money?

Here is a list of government funded "green" energy financial incentives for California, must be 50 of them:

http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/index.cfm?re=1&ee=1&spv=0&st=0&srp=1&state=CA

Read again. Almost all of those are funded by City Municipal power companies, because it is cost effective, rather than stressing the grid.

Not true, half if not more are state funded and the municipal appliance credits and insulation credits are tied in with the cash for appliances program. Even if they were ALL funded by municipal electric suppliers, who do you think pays additional costs incurred by the utility? Here is a hint, consumers do.

Anytime a business increases their cost, the consumer pays for it. It's basically a tax (another additional tax).

Your gonna pay anyhow. Transmission lines and power plants cost MORE than POU solar. As the populace grows, one or the other is required. In the LONG term, solar is cost effective. The utilities see it, but the populace doesn't.
The utilities are faced with an aging infrastructure that needs replacing and enlargement. They have studied both sides, and see that POU solar is the way to go. This is increasingly a free market decision.

 

[big2bird]

I anxiously await the fuel cell coming to fruition and start moving homes off the grid.

When I enquired about panels two years ago the 1200 sg ft flat roof of my garage was ideally situated. The cost then was $35,000 after rebates and it calculated to a fifteen year payback at the rates of the day.

I didn't do it as the payback exceeded the projected life of the panels. Now, two years later, who knows?

Just like computers, the cost will drop with increased production. That same system here in Anaheim would be $15,000 installed, with a 30 year life. Payback is still at 12-15 years.
If we can make an interlocking system that seals, and is designed into the roof structure, the install would be close to equal in roof install, with a glass surface that would outlast any roofing material we now have.
It would also reduce roof heat soak, which reduces cooling costs. Another win win.

 

[BBShark]

How is utility power more than POU solar?

Your gonna pay anyhow. Transmission lines and power plants cost MORE than POU solar. As the populace grows, one or the other is required. In the LONG term, solar is cost effective. The utilities see it, but the populace doesn't.
The utilities are faced with an aging infrastructure that needs replacing and enlargement. They have studied both sides, and see that POU solar is the way to go. This is increasingly a free market decision.

I anxiously await the fuel cell coming to fruition and start moving homes off the grid.

When I enquired about panels two years ago the 1200 sg ft flat roof of my garage was ideally situated. The cost then was $35,000 after rebates and it calculated to a fifteen year payback at the rates of the day.

I didn't do it as the payback exceeded the projected life of the panels. Now, two years later, who knows?

 

[big2bird]

If factories were built using the old Ford Factory design of the 20's, with a saw tooth roof, the impact would be enormous. Flat panels facing north, with natural daylight instead of lights. Slanted solar panels facing south, with angles determined by latitude.
An all glass roof , with indefenite life expectancy. POU generation, with peak power supplied by natural gas turbines, or wind generation.
Reduced energy costs would bring home jobs, as Chinese workers demand higher pay.
This country put a man on the moon, and a lab in space fully powered by light. This can be done, and would solve alot of fiscal woes in this country.
How about energy independence for one? If we relie on foreign interests for energy, maybe we should invest in this with some of that military budget.
Forget fighting for oil, just reduce it, or even do away with most of it.

 

[big2bird]

How is utility power more than POU solar?



After we install that oil well in Genes back yard, we can build a nuclear plant in yours. Coal if you prefer. They're cheap.
If you think rebuilding the interstate is going to be expensive, wait till you see THIS cost.
1 megawatt:
Build 1 megawatt power plant, 1 megawatt substation, 1 megawatt transmission line on more land ($$$)then another 1 megawatt substation, OR:
Sprinkle 1 megawatt solar panels at POU, and DONE.

 

[big2bird]

Lets compare the insanity:
We now use energyto mine coal in Virginia. We use energyto transfer the coal to Utah, where it pollutes.
We then transmit that energy via power lines to LA, which has losses ofenergy.
OR, we install solar where it is used, POU, and have no usage of fossil energy.

 

[mrvette]

Bird, better than any POU concepts you have mentioned, I followed a link to a company here in USA that makes a portable nuclear power plant....

it can be planted on 1/4 acre and easily power an entire small town, much less a large sub division....and the output is a/c power, hence no inverter or dynomotor/generator needed....

I forget the name of the company, but the projected life span of their units was something like 50? years.....

then they dig up the plant, install another one, take it away on a flat bed to be reprocessed.....

antiquating the power lines would make enough copper and aluminum available to be reprocessed, we would NEVER need another pound of copper, just like what happened to copper when ATT long lines went fiber optic....

:clap::drink:

 

[big2bird]

Bird, better than any POU concepts you have mentioned, I followed a link to a company here in USA that makes a portable nuclear power plant....

it can be planted on 1/4 acre and easily power an entire small town, much less a large sub division....and the output is a/c power, hence no inverter or dynomotor/generator needed....

I forget the name of the company, but the projected life span of their units was something like 50? years.....

then they dig up the plant, install another one, take it away on a flat bed to be reprocessed.....

antiquating the power lines would make enough copper and aluminum available to be reprocessed, we would NEVER need another pound of copper, just like what happened to copper when ATT long lines went fiber optic....

:clap::drink:

Okay. What do you do with the "not in my backyard" waste?

 

[DWncchs]

Good thread Bird, Interesting read.

 

[JPhil]

Okay. What do you do with the "not in my backyard" waste?

Bury it in Saudi Arabia........

 

[elevatordude]

Okay. What do you do with the "not in my backyard" waste?

Bury it in Saudi Arabia........

Bury it in Gene's back yard... oh wait that land was taken by eminent domain for the oil well.

 

[saudivette]

...This country put a man on the moon, and a lab in space fully powered by light. This can be done, and would solve alot of fiscal woes in this country.
How about energy independence for one? If we relie on foreign interests for energy, maybe we should invest in this with some of that military budget.
Forget fighting for oil, just reduce it, or even do away with most of it.

How much would "state sponsored terrorism" decline if oil money wasn't there to pay for it?

Okay. What do you do with the "not in my backyard" waste?

Bury it in Saudi Arabia........

Good point, well presented but could you hold off for about 4 years please?

 

[DeeVeeEight]

OK - I am interested in going solar on my home in NJ. I have no extra money to invest in a solar system. How can I justify the start up costs and what is the life expectancy of such an installation? What is the return on the investment? I can see the benefits of shading my roof - the A/C system would not work as hard, the only drawback then is no solar heating of the roof in the winter. Also - my roofs face east-west, is that an advantage or disadvantage?

 

[DJ Dep]

Okay. What do you do with the "not in my backyard" waste?

This has been the ecofreak's biggest argument against nuclear power. Oops...sorry Jeff. Didn't meant to call you an ecofreak.
But that is the position you are taking. Here is an intelligent, reasonable, and accurate description of the nuclear waste situation. It pretty much squashes the nuclear waste objection completely. It also gives examples of what can be done with nuclear waste.

http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter11.html

 

[DJ Dep]

BTW...for it to be economically feasable for me to go solar, I would have to live well past 100. I don't think that is gonna happen. And as I said, the electric company (PNM) has jacked up the electric rates ON EVERYONE to offset the free energy that ecofreaks are producing. Nothing is for nothing. All those maintenance workers and electric lines still have to be paid for. Or would you like to lay them off because you decided to go green, and climb one of those metal towers and fix a high tension line yourself?

In my town ecofreaks are at each other's throats over trees in their neighbor's yards that block the sun. All kinds of lawsuits being filed and some rather nasty encounters that ended up with the police being called. Welcome to the side effects of "going green".

 

[big2bird]

OK - I am interested in going solar on my home in NJ. I have no extra money to invest in a solar system. How can I justify the start up costs and what is the life expectancy of such an installation? What is the return on the investment? I can see the benefits of shading my roof - the A/C system would not work as hard, the only drawback then is no solar heating of the roof in the winter. Also - my roofs face east-west, is that an advantage or disadvantage?

The only way to really answer that is on site. It varies greatly by area. Start here:http://www.solarsystemsdesign.com/solar_costcalc.php

 

[big2bird]

Okay. What do you do with the "not in my backyard" waste?

This has been the ecofreak's biggest argument against nuclear power. Oops...sorry Jeff. Didn't meant to call you an ecofreak.
But that is the position you are taking. Here is an intelligent, reasonable, and accurate description of the nuclear waste situation. It pretty much squashes the nuclear waste objection completely. It also gives examples of what can be done with nuclear waste.

http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter11.html

See, I am moderate on most of this. I have no issue with nuclear power at all. The only issue is not one nuclear depository has yet to open. On site storage is getting full, and everyone has the "not in my back yard" arguement.
That converted salt mine is perfect in my eyes.

 

[big2bird]

BTW...for it to be economically feasable for me to go solar, I would have to live well past 100. I don't think that is gonna happen. And as I said, the electric company (PNM) has jacked up the electric rates ON EVERYONE to offset the free energy that ecofreaks are producing. Nothing is for nothing. All those maintenance workers and electric lines still have to be paid for. Or would you like to lay them off because you decided to go green, and climb one of those metal towers and fix a high tension line yourself?

Dep, the rates are higher because fuel is higher, and the grid is strained. Power saving devices such as CFL's, energy star appliances, and such are only a stop gap measure. Although greatly beneficial, energy usage in this country is still on the rise.
In 1950, the average home had a 60 ampere service with 5 circuits.
I have that many in my kitchen alone.
Think about the new loads.:Non -existent before 70's or so
1 or more computers each home/printer/scanner
Cable TV
Microwaves
Flat screen TV's
DVD player
VCR player
Trash compactor
Garage door opener
Central A/C
Clothes dryer
Waterbed heaters/elec blankets
Cell phone chargers/IPOD/Walkmans
The list is endless.
Add this to the fact the populace has prob doubled, you see the issue.
Hoover dam supplies perhaps 10% of Las Vegas alone. The increase is staggering and exponential.

 

[SmokinBBC]

Bird......there is a strong possibility that a percentage of the population will also be plugging in their electric cars at home as well 20 years from now....wonder how much more power that will require.....

 

[73 Mike]

OK - I am interested in going solar on my home in NJ. I have no extra money to invest in a solar system. How can I justify the start up costs and what is the life expectancy of such an installation? What is the return on the investment? I can see the benefits of shading my roof - the A/C system would not work as hard, the only drawback then is no solar heating of the roof in the winter. Also - my roofs face east-west, is that an advantage or disadvantage?

The only way to really answer that is on site. It varies greatly by area. Start here:http://www.solarsystemsdesign.com/solar_costcalc.php

Cool link Bird. Thanks!

Incidentally, in my neck of the woods, payback is 3 to 4 years for a purchased system. Lease deals make this essentially free but you pay rent to the lease holder rather than electricity payments to PG&E. Not much financial advantage there though it would limit your exposure to price increases over the life of the system.

 

[big2bird]

Bird......there is a strong possibility that a percentage of the population will also be plugging in their electric cars at home as well 20 years from now....wonder how much more power that will require.....

Elec cars out now require about 22 amps, or 2500 watts (30 amp circuit) for about 4-12 hours depending on depletion of batteries.
Just like any battery charge, it tapers down with increased charge.
Basically, you pay for what you use.

 

[BBShark]

Cool link Bird. Thanks!

Incidentally, in my neck of the woods, payback is 3 to 4 years for a purchased system. Lease deals make this essentially free but you pay rent to the lease holder rather than electricity payments to PG&E. Not much financial advantage there though it would limit your exposure to price increases over the life of the system.

I'm not so sure that link is accurate.

3 to 4 years? I use 500kw avg per month and pay about $65/month avg. So if payback were to begin in 4 years, I would have to find a system that cost $3500.