PROCOMP sbc cylinder heads

[arneoe]

I bought my set of PROCOMP cylinder heads from http://stores.shop.ebay.com/GR8HOTRODS__W0QQ_armrsZ1 GR8HOTRODS.COM is amongst many that offer this brand at very low prices. First I ordered a set of 190cc heads with 68cc combustion chambers. According to adverts they are sold as PC3002PT. Shortly after I was told that the seller that the 190/68cc was out of stock and we agreed that I’ll wait for a set of 68cc chamber heads when available. Because of CR issues I decided to go for 68cc chambers rather than 64cc, which was available at that time. Couples of weeks later I was informed that the seller had shipped a set of 68cc. When I finally received the heads, I noticed that the cylinder heads were stamped with PC3003. As per the URL www.procompelectronics.com, the PC3003 would be 210cc runners with 64cc chambers. I’ll come back to my detailed findings as I progress in this thread.

This pic is taken from Procomp Electronics:



Yes I know, these heads are moulded in China, sized, milled and assembled in the United States …., but I also know that so are my Scat stroker crank, my flat top pistons and so on. I ensure you that I have no agenda when I publish my findings and you must all take it for what it is and make up your private minds. However I feel somewhat obliged to tell you the facts, when I have my hands on these very cylinder heads, which a lot of people have spoken so negatively about. Some issues may be true, but I don’t think that those horror stories apply to the pair of cylinder heads I have inspected, that is for sure.

The supplier has done his “best” to hide the orginator. :lol:




Arne

 

[turtlevette]

did you buy them assembled or bare?

i got a bare set of 190cc procomps from guru for $250 never installed. I need to get some 202 valves.

 

[arneoe]

Mine are with OEM valves (2.02 and 1.6) installed. All components are purchased from Precision Engine Parts, Las Vegas. The valves are 21-4N stainless. The springs, retainers, locks and rocker studs are the best steel available (according to the supplier Gr8HotRods). Valve seals are Viton.


http://www.precisionengineparts.com/



Arne

 

[arneoe]

When I received the cylinder heads this Easter, I made a thorough visual inspection. I was in general very pleased with the quality of cast and machining. Both intake and exhaust runners are good for direct bolt on. So are combustion chambers. The cast inside is quite even and will not require much work to be perfect. The PC#3003s are told to be of a newer cast, different to older casts. I have not tried to prove the justification in this statement, but it seems to me that the cylinder heads I have received do not look like those being frequently posted by the hardcore disbelievers. All combustion chambers had a good even surface and without blemishes of any kind. The valves were evenly seated and correctly spaced. I noticed that there was a 0.7mm height difference between I/E measured on top of the stems. I don’t think that will make any difference to the valve train geometry.












Arne

 

[arneoe]

I inspected all threaded bolt holes and found no imperfections except for rocker bolt holes. They were all drilled half thru the intake runner upper wall, see pic. This must be observed and fixed prior to installation. Burr edge must be removed and rocker bolts threads properly sealed. Easy fix, no worries, you find this almost all OEM cylinder heads with threaded rocker bolts.


Arne

 

[arneoe]

I did the gasket alignment, using the FelPro #1003 head gaskets The #1003s and the ProComps have a perfect match. Both cylinder heads are tested.



Arne

 

[mrvette]

Looks as good as that set of Edelbrocks I had some years ago....

:surrender:

 

[arneoe]

The cylinder heads I received have slanted intake runners like the GM Vortec heads. The inlet runner height is much higher than standard and calls for other than standard gaskets. The following pics have FelPro#1206 installed to show the actual match or mismatch if you like.


I tried to see how the Edelbrock Performer EPS will fit. The reason for using Edel EPS:
http://www.vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3449



... here with the FelPro#1206 installed. Inadvertently the gasket is placed inside out, but never mind...:


The mating flange of the Edel EPS is too small and does not allow much metal removed if you want a good match between runner and intake. How much that means to power loss is debatable, but I’ll look for a better solution


Arne

 

[arneoe]

Luckily the PROCOMs have Vortec bolt pattern and the Edelbrock Vortec EPS has much larger flange which allows sufficient metal removed. The Vortec flange requires different gasket (FelPro#1255) and fasteners (4 off each side). Just to illustrated the different runner patterns the #1206 is shown here.





Arne

 

[Yellow73SB]

It seems that they are cast very well

How much do they weight?

 

[enkeivette]

I've heard the ProComps don't flow very well, you're probably better off with the 210s anyways. Just buy a thicker MLS HG to lower the compression, you can lower it more than 1/2 a point with just the HG.

 

[arneoe]

Thank you for interesting comments. I’ll come back to weight and flow later when I have finished liquid tests of cavities. As for head gaskets and lowering compression ratio, I have discussed this in detail in my thread:
http://www.vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3918

Arne

 

[arneoe]

To day I liquid tested the PROCOMs combustion chambers to be 67.5 cc. All eight were of equal size. After a thorough inspection of the intake runners I got a good impression of the total quality of the cylinder heads. The intake runners show an excellent shape, size and smoothness and evidently there is no need for any modifications for my purpose. The bowls just behind the valve have been frequently reported to be of poor quality. My PROCOMPs have no evidence of such and show a smooth surface. The bowls could of cause have been improved to obtain higher flow, but my build is a mildly tuned street engine and does not call for such modifications. Drivability is the most important goal and the speed of flow at low lifts is far more important. The Edelbrock 27164 SBC Performer EPS Vortec manifold had some imperfections inside just at the mounting flange (see pic). I decided to go for a simple gasket matching job to adjust the larger intake runners of the PROCOMPs. I used FelPro #1255 ( 0.120”) and the obtained match is satisfactory.







-------------
Arne

 

[BRUTAL64]

To day I liquid tested the PROCOMs combustion chambers to be 67.5 cc. All eight were of equal size. After a thorough inspection of the intake runners I got a good impression of the total quality of the cylinder heads. The intake runners show an excellent shape, size and smoothness and evidently there is no need for any modifications for my purpose. The bowls just behind the valve have been frequently reported to be of poor quality. My PROCOMPs have no evidence of such and show a smooth surface. The bowls could of cause have been improved to obtain higher flow, but my build is a mildly tuned street engine and does not call for such modifications. Drivability is the most important goal and the speed of flow at low lifts is far more important. The Edelbrock 27164 SBC Performer EPS Vortec manifold had some imperfections inside just at the mounting flange (see pic). I decided to go for a simple gasket matching job to adjust the larger intake runners of the PROCOMPs. I used FelPro #1255 ( 0.120”) and the obtained match is satisfactory.









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Arne

About what I did on my China Heads. I did a little bowl work, just couldn't stop myself.

 

[comp]

did you buy them assembled or bare?

i got a bare set of 190cc procomps from guru for $250 never installed. I need to get some 202 valves.

man that is a deal

 

[Red]

To day I liquid tested the PROCOMs combustion chambers to be 67.5 cc. All eight were of equal size. After a thorough inspection of the intake runners I got a good impression of the total quality of the cylinder heads. The intake runners show an excellent shape, size and smoothness and evidently there is no need for any modifications for my purpose. The bowls just behind the valve have been frequently reported to be of poor quality. My PROCOMPs have no evidence of such and show a smooth surface. The bowls could of cause have been improved to obtain higher flow, but my build is a mildly tuned street engine and does not call for such modifications. Drivability is the most important goal and the speed of flow at low lifts is far more important. The Edelbrock 27164 SBC Performer EPS Vortec manifold had some imperfections inside just at the mounting flange (see pic). I decided to go for a simple gasket matching job to adjust the larger intake runners of the PROCOMPs. I used FelPro #1255 ( 0.120”) and the obtained match is satisfactory.
-------------
Arne

Thanks for posting this, you have my attention and interest. My local speed shop sells Patriot heads complete with 2.02 intake ss valves and 1.6 exhaust valves, 190 cc runners and 64 cc chambers and springs good up to .580 lift. The heads have been CNC machined to Fel Pro gaskets and look absolutely perfect for $880 complete. No porting necessary. Things happened and I had to postpone my purchase, but now you have me thinking. My purpose is for a street/strip machine, so reliability is a high priority. For $700 I think you got a deal. Post results after you have it running. Ooh..and BTW, what is wrong with the 64 cc chamber?

 

[arneoe]

It is nothing wrong with a 64cc chamber, but just for this build I wanted not to exceed CR 10:1, due to the pump gas available locally. A 64cc chamber for my 383 would result in approx. 10.5:1 and a 68cc 10:1. I may reconsider this and go for the .041” FelPro because of the measured 67.5cc chambers.

I have also considered the Patriot 190cc, and if I should believe what have seen from flow specs, they are even better than the PROCOMPs. I have never had hands-on the Patriots and have to rely on what people say. From my sources, I have only heard positive remarks about the Patriots. I have “filtered out” CF and some other related forums, which in my little world does not count as reliable sources in this case. It would be nice if members here on VetteMod shared with us their experience with the Patriots. Surely someone here must have first hand information on this topic.

The reason for buying my PROMCOMPs, was solely out of curiosity, I just had to find out if they were bad or good. From what I read on CF, the odds were not very good…. Anyway from what I have seen so far, all seems OK and there is nothing wrong with my PROCOMPs … that is for sure. Probably they are no CNCed AFRs, but well suited for someone that wants a build for less money and reasonable results.

I’ll take you further as things progress, but it may take some time, fall and winter are soon here.

Arne

 

[Red]

Thanks arneoe, another point of interest is that you cc'ed the chambers to find they are all equal in volume. My thought this lends testamony to the quality of the casting; unless they were machined, and that doesn't appear to have been done. Also, I notice yout heads are going on a 383 and what I decided to do with my 3970010, four bolt two piece main seal block. It will be decked to get as much compression possible with pump gas. My plan is to spend the extra bucks and make it a roller motor.

Maybe, you can share some of the particulars of your build like what rotating assembly and cam you chose? My experience building engines has been limited to stock motors with an overbore, so I'm on that learning curve. Next Monday, while I'm in the area, I am going to stop at Murray's Speed and Custom to see if he still has those Patriot heads I mentioned. If he lets me, I will take a few pictures to post here for comparison; if you don't mind?

I agree with what you say about some attitudes about those China heads. I'm sure at one time there were casting problems, but it seems they have been solved and a thing of the past. Thanks again for posting your finding!

 

[mrvette]

Thanks arneoe, another point of interest is that you cc'ed the chambers to find they are all equal in volume. My thought this lends testamony to the quality of the casting; unless they were machined, and that doesn't appear to have been done. Also, I notice yout heads are going on a 383 and what I decided to do with my 3970010, four bolt two piece main seal block. It will be decked to get as much compression possible with pump gas. My plan is to spend the extra bucks and make it a roller motor.

Maybe, you can share some of the particulars of your build like what rotating assembly and cam you chose? My experience building engines has been limited to stock motors with an overbore, so I'm on that learning curve. Next Monday, while I'm in the area, I am going to stop at Murray's Speed and Custom to see if he still has those Patriot heads I mentioned. If he lets me, I will take a few pictures to post here for comparison; if you don't mind?

I agree with what you say about some attitudes about those China heads. I'm sure at one time there were casting problems, but it seems they have been solved and a thing of the past. Thanks again for posting your finding!

I dunno if you can retro fit a FACTORY set of roller lifters or not, but those toggle things in pairs....I have seen pix of them breaking and wiping out a ton of expensive ****.....fine for a petted over race car, but there is a reason GM went dawg bone along with Mopar, that I know of, for holding them lifters from twisting.....

maybe get a later 80's truck block, that's what mine is....'89 one piece roller block from the factory...4 bolt mains to boot....

:gurney:

 

[turtlevette]

I agree with what you say about some attitudes about those China heads. I'm sure at one time there were casting problems, but it seems they have been solved and a thing of the past. Thanks again for posting your finding!

The next thing China needs to make is a SBC block. $4000 is just too much. You're paying for all those losers to go on disability.

 

[Twin_Turbo]

4000 ?? you must mean aluminum block. Eitehr way, with the price of LS engines, there's no reason to waste money on an aluminum GenI SBC, the LS is better in every aspect. I've been eyeballing the front distributor drive for the LS, would be cool to just run a carb and a dizzy on the front, eliminate the coil packs and all. People here wouldn't know WTF you were running.

 

[pcf_mark]

FYI - the LS front cover uses a FORD distributor and fuel pump! That will really confuse people! Nice pice of machine work but the cost is steep.

 

[Red]

4000 ?? you must mean aluminum block. Eitehr way, with the price of LS engines, there's no reason to waste money on an aluminum GenI SBC, the LS is better in every aspect. I've been eyeballing the front distributor drive for the LS, would be cool to just run a carb and a dizzy on the front, eliminate the coil packs and all. People here wouldn't know WTF you were running.

I totally agree about LS engines, but they are hard to find at an affordable price. One guy locally has a 76 Vette with a carbed LS1/ TH350 with just a mild cam and running 12.2 all day long with a 3.36 gear. It wore a Holley 750 CFM carburetor and used a computer eliminator box. It kept the stock reluctor and coils for fire. He has since rebuilt the motor with AFR heads and internals to match, but it has been close to a year and nothing but problems, from what I've heard. I lost touch with him, maybe I'll send him an email. I'm not an engine guru and not familiar with a distributor available to fire an LS engine. I thought they all used a reluctor up front?

 

[Twin_Turbo]

 

[clutchdust]

I'm glad you're not having any problems. I personally would not buy any heads (or any engine parts) from China. It's not just a quality issue for me, it's political.
But this isn't the right section for that....

 

[Red]

Yup...that distributor and cover looks purdy slick http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/LS-Front-Distributor-Drive-Cover-88958679-P1452C0.aspx , but at $500 less dist, plus $700 for the computer eliminator box and intake, the cost can get out of control real easy. For the budget minded, a mild Gen1 engine is still attractive. If I hadn't bought all those lottery tickets, maybe I could afford an LSx motor.

 

[mrvette]

Yup...that distributor and cover looks purdy slick http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/LS-Front-Distributor-Drive-Cover-88958679-P1452C0.aspx , but at $500 less dist, plus $700 for the computer eliminator box and intake, the cost can get out of control real easy. For the budget minded, a mild Gen1 engine is still attractive. If I hadn't bought all those lottery tickets, maybe I could afford an LSx motor.

YUp that is pretty slick ok, I see GM cast on the dizzy box there, cute....

anyway, IF I was doing another engine today, not any issue it would be a LS something...but as it is, I can't see it bringing 4000 MIN cost of extras to the table....even IF I doubled (impossible) my 18 mpg on today's gas...it would take a century to break even....

:beer:

 

[Red]

Thanks arneoe, another point of interest is that you cc'ed the chambers to find they are all equal in volume. My thought this lends testamony to the quality of the casting; unless they were machined, and that doesn't appear to have been done. Also, I notice yout heads are going on a 383 and what I decided to do with my 3970010, four bolt two piece main seal block. It will be decked to get as much compression possible with pump gas. My plan is to spend the extra bucks and make it a roller motor.

Maybe, you can share some of the particulars of your build like what rotating assembly and cam you chose? My experience building engines has been limited to stock motors with an overbore, so I'm on that learning curve. Next Monday, while I'm in the area, I am going to stop at Murray's Speed and Custom to see if he still has those Patriot heads I mentioned. If he lets me, I will take a few pictures to post here for comparison; if you don't mind?
I agree with what you say about some attitudes about those China heads. I'm sure at one time there were casting problems, but it seems they have been solved and a thing of the past. Thanks again for posting your finding!

As I said, below are the photos I took of the Patriot heads at my local Murray's Speed and Custom. I must admit, the heads he had on display were not the same as I had seen and remember. These heads did not look CNC ported, but had been hand ported. Maybe, that is why the last heads had one valve out of each head to show off the port work and these did not. He also had a pair of Pro Comp heads on display, but they were also already port matched, so I suspect he, or someone else is doing the port work.

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

[/IMG]
These don't show much, but it is all I could get. While I was there, the owner showed me an LS1 engine he had in the back and said this is what you want. When I mentioned the cost, he threw some unbelieveable low price he paid for the engine and HP parts he had found over time. This was his personal engine to be used in a car he has. Hey...he is in the business and is exposed to way more deals than I'm ever going to find. That said, I'll keep looking and see what turns up. If not, I know where I can find cheap heads to bolt on my Gen1 block.

 

[arneoe]

Hi Red, nice to see the photos you took of the Patriot heads at the Murray's Speed and Custom. These heads are as you indicated not CNC ported, but just gasket matched, probably by hand. I have not inspected these cylinder heads myself, but it seems like they have a reasonable flow as cast for mild street engine builds. I’ll try to do some work on my PROCOMPs next week and hopefully I have some more information to post as I progress. If you have some more information about the Patriots Red, I’ll appreciate sharing your findings.

As for the roller cam; I don't think that the 3970010 block is well suited for such. I would choose a flat tappet cam to be safe.

Arne

 

[arneoe]

I'm glad you're not having any problems. I personally would not buy any heads (or any engine parts) from China. It's not just a quality issue for me, it's political.
But this isn't the right section for that....

Yes I do agree with you ...:chinese:... it's political. Please read my posting #1. ... Hopefully I'll won't hurt anybody's feelings by my posting here on VM? .... I got heavy "flak" from the big gunsprrtt: on CF... so please not again ....:lol:


Arne