Heat soaked starters/Myth or fact

[big2bird]

There are people on other forums who say "THere is no such thing as heat soak."
There are also those who do not comprehend my explanation.
Please read the following bulletins by the folks at GM about the cause and cure. Frankly, I always wondered why the 454 BBC had a brown solenoid, now I know.

 

[big2bird]

 

[turtlevette]

all this grief caused to millions of people because the dumb ass who designed the starter solenoid used wire that is too small.

its real simple and really stupid.

 

[kwplot34]

Where did you find that at Jeff? and i always thought it was because the internal parts of the starter expanded from the heat and thats what caused the hot start problem :bonkers:


And as always thanks to Turtle for his Technical explanation :goodnight:

 

[big2bird]

Where did you find that at Jeff? and i always thought it was because the internal parts of the starter expanded from the heat and thats what caused the hot start problem :bonkers:


And as always thanks to Turtle for his Technical explanation :goodnight:

I found that in an 84 Motorhome chasis book, but the story is the same. Jim's explanation is dead on.

The heat raises the winding resistence in the solenoid to where enough current to operate it cannot go thru the windings, ergo, too weak a magnetic field.
It actually has nothing to do with the motor itself, although it CAN weaken the output torque as well.
That same design starter has been used since the 30's, and works well when cool. It produces about 1 HP.

 

[big2bird]

That same design starter has been used since the 30's, and works well when cool. It produces about 1 HP.

This is a 38 Buick genny and starter. The starter uses the SAME brushes.
(If it ain't broken,...........)

 

[kwplot34]

You see even i can learn something new,what i thought caused the hot start problem was close,but not exactly right on.
You know even with my Tilton mini starter last year in Arkansas i had a hot start problem,lots of slow driving in the hills and hot outside temps.

Speaking of Eureka springs AK that is coming up soon :yahoo: anybody going from here besides me :friends: it the first weekend of OCT

 

[mrvette]

Been damn nearly 40 years since I seen a genny like that Bird.....on my '60-61 Pontiacs.....left the last one in Texas in '70......

as for the hot start thing, maybe ONCE on this vette, and that was several years ago, I went to the mini starter for less than 100 bux at AZ, and never looked back....lifetime warranty too, I think....

I have headers not so very far away from it too, and no heat shield either....

course on these vettes, what with the way the battery cables are done...when I got the car, very first thing I did was grind down the frame on all wire spots/bolts, and clean up everybody really well, bolt down with lock washers really snug, the covered the whole stud with RTV to keep out any corrosion, case closed.....


:bump::bounce:

you know many if not most battery negatives cables go directly to the block with a thinner ground wire to the body--firewall.....so there is no accumulated resistance in the wiring....


:thumbs:

 

[big2bird]

Been damn nearly 40 years since I seen a genny like that Bird.....on my '60-61 Pontiacs.....left the last one in Texas in '70......

Think the kids know what "polarizing" is Gene?

 

[Luster]

Excellent thread! I had heat soak when I first bought my '82. I'd pull into a gas station, fill with gas, and I'd have to wait 15 minutes before it would re-start!

Not anymore.... I solved the problem with one of these... 90 bucks on eBay!

 

[big_G]

Been damn nearly 40 years since I seen a genny like that Bird.....on my '60-61 Pontiacs.....left the last one in Texas in '70......

Think the kids know what "polarizing" is Gene?

Damn...I do....:smash:

 

[Bullshark]

Excellent thread! I had heat soak when I first bought my '82. I'd pull into a gas station, fill with gas, and I'd have to wait 15 minutes before it would re-start!

Not anymore.... I solved the problem with one of these... 90 bucks on eBay!

I agree. :thumbs:
Numerous things can contribute to this problem as bird's articles point out, but replacing the weakest link.... the starter / solenoid ....with a new mini is the my choice. simple, cheep, quick.

All my BB C3's use it. So would the LT-1 if I wasn't a poser.

Bullshark

 

[Fuelie74]

I am still a fan of running a remote solenoid to cure the problem. A mini starter may help but it will not keep the s terminal wire from getting hot and increasing resitance. As an added bonus it gets all of you constant hot wires away from the exhaust and gives you an easy access point to bump the engine over when working under the hood.

 

[big2bird]

Mini staarters do have their good points.
1)Lighter
2)Easy to index
3)Less current to operate
4)More torque

As with all things, there is a trade off.

PMRG starters have permanent magnets. They are very susceptable to impact and heat. DO NOT drop one, as the magnets can/will shatter. You might even notice instead of heat soak, they WILL lose their field strength/torque over time. Heat /impact is the downfall of permanent magnets.

 

[mrvette]

Been damn nearly 40 years since I seen a genny like that Bird.....on my '60-61 Pontiacs.....left the last one in Texas in '70......

Think the kids know what "polarizing" is Gene?

Yeh, same as 'clocking'.....ain't it???


:devil:

 

[BRUTAL64]

Been damn nearly 40 years since I seen a genny like that Bird.....on my '60-61 Pontiacs.....left the last one in Texas in '70......

Think the kids know what "polarizing" is Gene?

I do.prrtt:

 

[Phill's Vette]

Fulie74,
I also agree on the remote solenoid, it once and for all took care of my no start problem! I installed it on the lower right firewall close to the starter - out of sight. Don't want Ford parts showing under the hood....:sweat:Total cost $20 (solenoid and 12" cable)
Very good article! I too always though it was the solenoid rod that would get stuck - explains why beating on the starter with a hammer didn't always work....

 

[mrvette]

I"m trying to remember, but I think I had only one car with a 'heat soak' issue and it was cured by changing the starter assy.....now if the replacement had a brown or black cap on the solenoid....I dunno....not something I recall ever hearing about much less seeing any GM literature on.....interesting....and of course the windings are too thin a gauge, obviously....

40 friggin years man, CRS is definately set in....I remember polarizing ok but don't remember HOW....guess I would have to actually see the setup again...

pictures/words/etc.....

for the last ~25 years I"m so used to updating old cars of mine, that I just tear out all the old crap and start over doing things MY way, renewing old failure points, removing crap that failed often, typical hotrodding....nothing new really....but now a daze I keep a file about 2" thick excluding books/manuals on the changes done to this car, that a way my son Tom can take it over some day or have a sales tool to assist selling it....

:smash:

 

[69427]

all this grief caused to millions of people because the dumb ass who designed the starter solenoid used wire that is too small.

its real simple and really stupid.

I disagree. From the limited information pertaining to ignition switch resistance/voltage drop measurements and ambient temperatures, it appears to be a systems issue, not a single parts issue. I'm quite sure the designer of the solenoid had a specification requirement that it work under a certain level of temperature, and a range of voltage/current availability. The technical bulletin describes issues with the ignition switch system which can cause excessive resistance in the system, causing the solenoid to try to work outside its designed electrical environment. Also, I see no information documenting that the temperatures measured were within the initial design specs. I suspect that the starter solenoid, because it worked so well in the vehicles it was initially used in, was carried over to multitudes of later model year vehicles/applications that it was not initially designed for, and that sufficient measurements of the ambient/radiant temperatures were not made prior to use in that vehicle. It is simply not reasonable to ask every part to work under every condition. You couldn't afford the car if that was the case. (Safety related parts are designed to operate outside their design limit, but designed to fail in a safe way.) As conditions change, the part design must be updated. I suspect this wasn't.
The Ford solenoid fix merely bandaids the ignition switch voltage drop. IIRC (I can't see the wiring diagram while I'm typing this), the starter solenoid still does its dual function of pulling in the starter gear and connecting the power to the motor windings. Without seeing the electrical and environmental design specs for the solenoid, I simply can't agree with Turtle's simplistic reasoning that the designer was incompetent.

 

[big2bird]

I suspect that the starter solenoid, because it worked so well in the vehicles it was initially used in, was carried over to multitudes of later model year vehicles/applications that it was not initially designed for, and that sufficient measurements of the ambient/radiant temperatures were not made prior to use in that vehicle.

EXACTLY. That exact same starter solenoid was used in 1938 and earlier when the exhaust was on the opposite side.:thumbs:

 

[mrvette]

69427 off hand I tend to agree with you, and I think MAYBE once, or was it a buddy's car?? I had to change a starter assy for that heat soak problem....

but in fact for my own ****, I always made damn sure all the electricals were snug as a bug...and that cured my problems....

except for ONCE, I had been dating the kids mom for about 6 months, so her mother decided to fly from Long Island Islip down to DCA Reagan, National airport in those daze.....so we met her in my'72 Lemans coupe...fine....

at 10pm just for closing on account of noise regs at the time, it's of course dark, and so when she got in the car, the car went DEAD as a fish....I had been tuning around the radio so I knew the battery was live....but nothing, totally dead like NO battery.....I had some jumper cables, a clip lead, and a wrench was about it....so I took the + battery term to the clip lead to coil hot, took the + term to a jumper fed through the back of the hood, slammed it shut/flat, and just took a flying leap with the open jaws on that fuse block, drove it home about 20 miles that a way.....

thing that's strange....that freeeking CAR NEVER gave that symptom once ever again......

go figger.......

:trumpet::banghead::gurney:

 

[big2bird]

EXACTLY. That exact same starter solenoid was used in 1938 and earlier when the exhaust was on the opposite side.:thumbs:

 

[69427]

EXACTLY. That exact same starter solenoid was used in 1938 and earlier when the exhaust was on the opposite side.:thumbs:

It certainly doesn't appear that exhaust-caused heat soak should be an issue in this vehicle.

 

[boeing46]

I had that problem in my 67 Chevell/Malibu 327/350HP. I installed in kind of a bubba way an aluminum heat shield between the starter and anything that got hot. It was so embarrassing when i was about twenty to go on dates and every time we would stop i'd have to keep the motor running or have to sit for up to an hour for it to start.
I loved that car but if it was raining and i turned off the motor it wouldn't start till the next day I did another bubba to cover the distributer. Besides that the car ran like a stripped assed ape. I could woop a 396 for about a block. I wish i still had that car, i bet it would be worth a bunch of $$$. It was not an SS but it was loaded with posi track to the SB hi HP.
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2335830610103170910gGxUKP

 

[Kid Vette]

I think we have another Elvis sighting. :lol:

 

[daveL82]

Bought my 80 vette in 83 with headers installed and soon learned about the heat probelm regarding starting. Being an electronics tech at the time ehlped me to figure out the problem fast as I was able to apply battery power directly to the S terminal wire in the starter harness and it would start right up. Installed a 5 dollar relay in the starter harness and never looked back. I did this to all my GM cars after that.

I now have another GM issue with my 04 truck speedo. Known issue that they didn't fix. The GM relationship with suppliers and urgency to fix known problems has always been a joke and poorly managed. Did a lot to put them in the position they are today. It's not the cars it's the supplier/vendor management.