turtlevette
The Turdle
ok so when you do your burnout there's no ram air.
i've got the Griffin 1.25 tube.
can i drive yours? I wanna see if i can get it hot for you.
Electric Fans - Who Needs 'Em>
- Thread starter Kid Vette
- Start date
ok so when you do your burnout there's no ram air.
i've got the Griffin 1.25 tube.
can i drive yours? I wanna see if i can get it hot for you.
big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
Kid Vette
Master-Baiter
I think you just nailed it. Many people who report a cooling improvement when they switch to electric fans also swap a new aluminum radiator for the old clogged and corroded copper/brass radiator and tell everybody how great the new electric fans are. They probably would have got the same benefit with just a new aluminum radiator. If the benefits of electric fans was so clear cut they wouldn't still be using fan/clutch setups on anything. My 2006 GMC Canyon has a fan/clutch setup and it works great. As Gene stated electric fans came along when FWD appeared to solve an engineering problem for a specific application. So far nobody has convinced me I am wrong, however I have really enjoyed the discussion. And so far nobody has run to the mods claiming somebody has been bashing them!!
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turtlevette
The Turdle
"ANY imbalance on ANY shaft with bearings will trash ANY bearing.":smash: Better?
.
our cars use the pump with the bigger shaft and bigger bearings. It takes a lot to wear them out. Think about the force of the fan belts constantly pushing against the bearing. That's probably around a hundred pounds or more.
i bet 95% of C3s would severely overheat under sustained WOT operation. Nobody ever tries it so we'll never know.
turtlevette
The Turdle
that's because we're bashing the mods:lol:
big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
"ANY imbalance on ANY shaft with bearings will trash ANY bearing.":smash: Better?
.
our cars use the pump with the bigger shaft and bigger bearings. It takes a lot to wear them out. Think about the force of the fan belts constantly pushing against the bearing. That's probably around a hundred pounds or more.
Side thrust on a bearing designed for side loading is irrelevant to discussing extreme harmonics/vibration from an imbalance . Try again.
MYBAD79
Moderator
Wow, Jeff... didn't know the Silverado still uses a belt driven fan.... I assume the Avalanche is the same setup.... well, there's definitely enough room under the hood :wink:
The water pump leakage is not only because of vibration, often it's because "real men" use a 4' cheater bar to tension the belt... :smash::smash:
The water pump leakage is not only because of vibration, often it's because "real men" use a 4' cheater bar to tension the belt... :smash::smash:
big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
Yes sir. She's got Vortec heads, serp set-up, and a CS alternator(Only 1 though). "Marine cam NOT included."
I apologise. I couldn't help myself.:smash::smash::smash:
Kid Vette
Master-Baiter
Yours actually runs though! :lol:
Yes sir. She's got Vortec heads, serp set-up, and a CS alternator(Only 1 though). "Marine cam NOT included."
I apologise. I couldn't help myself.:smash::smash::smash:
Bullshark
Well-known member
Burnout....I'm talkin 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to fourth and back. :bounce: You need a BB. :smash:
Oh...sorry I missed that in you engine pic.
You got a deal :thumbs: Just don't go stackin any pumpkins on it. :smash:
Bullshark
MYBAD79
Moderator
Yes sir. She's got Vortec heads, serp set-up, and a CS alternator(Only 1 though). "Marine cam NOT included."
I apologise. I couldn't help myself.:smash::smash::smash:
Unless the CS is properly clocked by the O'Reily experts it won't work... well it might or might not.... get I clocked or better get it replaced, return it or buy another one.... whatever makes you happy .... life is tough....
Bullshark
Well-known member
Sorry Kid, I too think I'm a pretty good engineer....if I do say so myself. :bonkers: Believe me I can tell the difference, Besides, I purchased the aluminum radiator first, before I upgraded to dual spals. :goodnight: I agree it has been fun.
Bullshark
big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
And that is..............?
I mean, all kidding aside, let's take it to the next level. IS there a difference? Are they just two ways of doing the same thing? Does anyone have hard data? Some thermaldynamic guru has studied this.
Bullshark
Well-known member
Next level will definitely require a thermodynamics expert. Not going to be a simple data experiment.
Bird, for me the difference was a smaller variation in temp extremes measured at the CTS in the manifold. Prior to dual spals I frequently peaked above 212. Now, seldom if ever. Not a controlled test though.
Uncle Uncle, I don't think TT and i can compete against Bird, Turtle and Kid.
:suicide:
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
About a year ago I had a super RARE chance to run above 120 for some 8 miles, with a ~2 mile slo down in the middle to 80.....we topped about 150, it was hot FLORIDA summer at about 100f outdoors.....the car never had a problem, and I have a stock a/c cond, and a ATF cooler in front of the late camaro single 1.25 inch thick row plastic tank radiator....same core size as stock for my '72 SB, I finally gave up the ghost with the '87 vette fan in the stock shroud that I ran for years with marginal results, I notice TT has pictured two fans in that install, it's about what it would take, IMO....anyway I hated that damn setup bad as that stock fan, just a huge PIA in the way, and fugly looking....
SO about 2-3? years ago I put a set of Dual Spals on, but I did mine differantly, I ran two angle aluminum pieces from the rear tab of the mounting clamps/holders for the rad.....laterally 1/4-20 bolts, and bolted the fans to them, across the top is a rubber door sweep from Lowes Depot, across the bottom bent and tucked into the shroud and clamped under the fan shrouds/cross support, is a piece of aluminum flashing from house roofs....
I conveniendtly had some leftover aluminum flashing all bent to size from a old skylight project,....this is bolted to the shroud edges and comes out to touch against the radiator tank seam on either side.....
this allows the fans to be about 2" to the rear of the rad, and sealed tighter than whale pussy, and that's waterproof......
the total affect was that the car now never overheats, and the temps stay within range really well, at high speeds the thing cools fantastic with a/c on or not....in traffic those spals pull that thing down in a minit even after a hot freeway run and off/into traffic....cant ask for more....
idling in the driveway, they cycle on off with more off time than run time, which tells me they working fine, more than adequate, even with that single row radiator, which was intended for a 350V8 in a F body.....
I don't have any stupid spoiler in front either....hate curb dragging....stupid crap not for toleration, now having said THAT, I am toying with the idea of something like Alex' spoiler he has on that shark of his....that blue/white stripe car....best damn shark spoiler I ever seen, by FAR.....
but my version would have to be differant I think, to keep from dragging....
:devil::yahoo:
SO about 2-3? years ago I put a set of Dual Spals on, but I did mine differantly, I ran two angle aluminum pieces from the rear tab of the mounting clamps/holders for the rad.....laterally 1/4-20 bolts, and bolted the fans to them, across the top is a rubber door sweep from Lowes Depot, across the bottom bent and tucked into the shroud and clamped under the fan shrouds/cross support, is a piece of aluminum flashing from house roofs....
I conveniendtly had some leftover aluminum flashing all bent to size from a old skylight project,....this is bolted to the shroud edges and comes out to touch against the radiator tank seam on either side.....
this allows the fans to be about 2" to the rear of the rad, and sealed tighter than whale pussy, and that's waterproof......
the total affect was that the car now never overheats, and the temps stay within range really well, at high speeds the thing cools fantastic with a/c on or not....in traffic those spals pull that thing down in a minit even after a hot freeway run and off/into traffic....cant ask for more....
idling in the driveway, they cycle on off with more off time than run time, which tells me they working fine, more than adequate, even with that single row radiator, which was intended for a 350V8 in a F body.....
I don't have any stupid spoiler in front either....hate curb dragging....stupid crap not for toleration, now having said THAT, I am toying with the idea of something like Alex' spoiler he has on that shark of his....that blue/white stripe car....best damn shark spoiler I ever seen, by FAR.....
but my version would have to be differant I think, to keep from dragging....
:devil::yahoo:
Twin_Turbo
Der Maulwurf
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2008
- Messages
- 7,575
It won't heat up. You need the fans at low speed, stop and go like traffic. So, your rpm is down, the clutch fan is not spinning all that fast. Now, turn on an electric fan at full blast. You will notice how it's always at full speed and will pull a lot more air. You can simply feel how much more if pulls in front of the care, I have tried it myself, the difference is noticable. So, it quickly cools down the entire core, temps will not spike at all. Have you ever run a cyl. head temp probe? I have, I always had about the same temp. diff between the cyl head and water pump coolant temps (had a probe in the top of the pump).
I knew we would get the your car doesn't run debate. Can't you think of something else? Anyway, from your description and seeing the pics your car is NOT a valid test bed because it doesn't appear to be well maintained. Pin holes in the rad and what else. If you want to compare apples to apples test 2 similarly equipped cars with proper cooling systems. You will not see temps spike with electric fans.
As for the opening, not much use if there's a license plate in front (mandatory here) and there's still the 2 openings on the side. Those are pretty large, enough air will come in through there.
As for the spoiler, if it's broken and you are not getting enough air in through the lower valance openings, well... that's anotehr case of lack of maintainance isn't it? It really doesn't have anything to do with electric or mechanical fans.
I know it doesn't full lock and fully slip, you know what I mean. Talking about playing with words
Do you know how to test the clutch fan?
I'm saying that the blade speed at higher vehicle speed is most likely NOT high enough to aid in cooling. So in that case, wether you turn your electric fan off or have a mech fan whipping air there but actually helping nothing...what's the difference?
The idea is to have the 1st fan kick in at a lower tempareture and the 2nd only when the coolant temps are getting significantly higher. When an electric fan kicks in at full speed it very quickly cools down the entire core, possible to a lower temperature than your clutch fan will when it's needed (low speed/stop & go) because the fan rpm is much larger, as it the amount of air pulled through.
Let's consider another application, oh let's say a bimmer or an audi with a healthy V8 or maybe a merc with a healthy V12. The almost all have 12"!!! yes 12" fans, usually 2 of them. Never a mech fan. The radiator cores on those cars is much smaller than on the C3 and the grill opening isn't that large either (most of it is cosmetic) still they don't over heat, they don't need a mech fan (audi engines are not transverse mounted, they are in front of the front axle), surely if the mech fan was that much better they would use it...no?
As I have said before, the biggest problem is the sloped radiator. if the top seals are not there you WILL have cooling issues. Tilting the rad the other way, having is straight up will give much better cooling even if the seals are not in perfect shape. See, that's why the C4 has the rad oriented like that.
Now you will understand the reason behind this thingamajig on the radiator frame:
There's that maintainance again
Now you're going to tell me, I don't drive my car enough to need maintainance LOL
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
There's that maintainance again
Well U don't, really......:smash::smash::tomato::tomato::tomato:
turtlevette
The Turdle
It won't heat up.
I knew we would get the your car doesn't run debate. Can't you think of something else? Anyway, from your description and seeing the pics your car is NOT a valid test bed because it doesn't appear to be well maintained. Pin holes in the rad and what else. If you want to compare apples to apples test 2 similarly equipped cars with proper cooling systems. You will not see temps spike with electric fans.
As for the opening, not much use if there's a license plate in front (mandatory here) and there's still the 2 openings on the side. Those are pretty large, enough air will come in through there.
As for the spoiler, if it's broken and you are not getting enough air in through the lower valance openings, well... that's anotehr case of lack of maintainance isn't it? It really doesn't have anything to do with electric or mechanical fans.
Do you know how to test the clutch fan?
I'm saying that the blade speed at higher vehicle speed is most likely NOT high enough to aid in cooling. So in that case, wether you turn your electric fan off or have a mech fan whipping air there but actually helping nothing...what's the difference?
The idea is to have the 1st fan kick in at a lower tempareture and the 2nd only when the coolant temps are getting significantly higher. When an electric fan kicks in at full speed it very quickly cools down the entire core, possible to a lower temperature than your clutch fan will when it's needed (low speed/stop & go) because the fan rpm is much larger, as it the amount of air pulled through.
There's that maintainance again
1. Why would you ever want the coolant in the rad to heat?
2. My car is well enough maintained to drive 600 miles to a track, run the car all day on the track and drive 600 miles home the next day.
3. Broken or not. That tiny spoiler is not enough to force enough air up and into the rad to the point of self cooling. Anyone with electric fans could just pull the fuse and do a test.
4. Almost all C3 owners are lying bastards and say their cars don't overheat. A blast up the mountain from Denver to Frisco and a guys perfectly restored 72 LT1 was puking antifreeze all over the hotel parking lot. Right before we left Denver he said his car NEVER overheated. It may be the case that 99% of c3 owners do not push their car hard enough to see cooling problems. Running through the gears once is not enough to do it.
5. I did think about the possibility that at idle electric fans will move more air than a mechanical fan. That may be one advantage. But why switch them off and let the system heat up. That's stupid. The problem is that the electric motors are only rated for a limited number of hours before they quit. The brushes go.
6. I would expect that you have parts rusting out on your car after sitting so long. I used to work in the Nuclear PP industry. Because it took 10 years or longer to build the things we were replacing parts that were never used 1 day due to rust and non use. Systems were outdated before the plant ever got on-line.
7. How many hours of seat time or miles did you actually drive your car before it was wrecked? Just curious. What do you use for a daily driver? The old truck?
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turtlevette
The Turdle
Gene, 8 miles at that speed is less than 4 minutes of heating the system. With the 2 mile slow down you were only stressing the system for 90 seconds at a time. Try it again for longer next time.
my rad is 2 rows of 1.25, twice as big as yours.
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