harmonic distortion damaging electrical items

[big2bird]

Also, because of the winds here, a couple of times I have gotten unequal voltage on each leg into the main panel (70v on 1 leg and 160v on the other), ended up as a deteriorated neutral connection at the pole, power company came out and fixed immediately both times. Maybe because they use aluminum wire in all this salty windy air???

There should be a ground rod at your meter too. You could put one in easily.

Have a good ground rod per code 5/8" x 8ft copperclad with teardrop and #4.
Both times it was their neutral at the pole connection.

Surprising we don't have the dual rod thing down here because we are 100% sand everwhere. But they are very strict on the extra bonding here for pool decks, screen enclosures fences etc even all motors and appliances. I know they don't like separated ground rods called it "jumping grounds" or something.

Lightning did hit a tree out front once, blew the ground clamp off the rod, blew every low voltage lite fixture in the house, blew the garage door opener, destroyed four fairly new tires, alternator, electronic speedo, big chunk of concrete out of driveway, and finally killed the mohogany tree next door. All this was long after my neutral issues.

That's an "auxilary ground rod." They are fine for lightning when the main ground is sound. Sounds like the ground for their nuetral at the transformer is bad/poor. Do yourself a favor, and set another rod 6' minimum from the first one, and tie them with a #6 solid. There is no law against it. Hell, you could bury a bare 4/0 copper 12" down all around the house if you like.
Power ground conductors must have a bending radius of 6 times the wire diameter. 8 times for lightning protection. HV does not like turns.
Post office specs, which are good nationally, call for a ground rod at each light pole. #6 bare to welded connection. House ground faults return thru the ground wires to the main. Lightning faults seek the path of least resistence, and go right down the pole, and into the aux ground, taking the #6 route, minimising damage to the grounded house conductor.

 

[Jsup]

I understand you guys running a genny like that, however, I cannot condone it. Guys die every year from this, and it only takes once.
Be forewarned, if utility guys are out and hear these running, they do that area last, and take their time. Lives are at stake here. That code has a very clear reason for being there.
As for an iso tranny at a residence, I'm with Jim. It has very little value if at all, and just uses more energy.

Like BBC asked, if the main is off, what's the problem?

 

[mrvette]

Also, because of the winds here, a couple of times I have gotten unequal voltage on each leg into the main panel (70v on 1 leg and 160v on the other), ended up as a deteriorated neutral connection at the pole, power company came out and fixed immediately both times. Maybe because they use aluminum wire in all this salty windy air???

There should be a ground rod at your meter too. You could put one in easily.

Have a good ground rod per code 5/8" x 8ft copperclad with teardrop and #4.
Both times it was their neutral at the pole connection.

Surprising we don't have the dual rod thing down here because we are 100% sand everwhere. But they are very strict on the extra bonding here for pool decks, screen enclosures fences etc even all motors and appliances. I know they don't like separated ground rods called it "jumping grounds" or something.

Lightning did hit a tree out front once, blew the ground clamp off the rod, blew every low voltage lite fixture in the house, blew the garage door opener, destroyed four fairly new tires, alternator, electronic speedo, big chunk of concrete out of driveway, and finally killed the mohogany tree next door. All this was long after my neutral issues.

SHIT, U 2?? I got hit some 9? years ago, what the climber said was the tallest tree on this hill, took out my underground Bell South/ATT phone wires...fried them ROYAL....I went Comcast phone for years....now just Cphone....but it also took out the McIntosh stereo...all sorts of other electronics and the computer, of course....surge protector or not....
which is why I now use the isolation transformers THEN the surge strip....

I was in the front bedroom at 515 am...tree in back yard, opposite corner 1/3 acre lot....the entire front bedroom lit up like brighter than sunlight the crack was more like a wavefront....huge AIR MOVEMENT, thought I had lost windows...but no....I remember looking down from above at myself laying in bed.....strange but true, I say no more about that one, still scratching my ass....

:goodnight:


the tree was toast stump still rotting away....there were some plastic DWV 4" pipes from various irrigation and gutter projects left behind by previous owner....under the hedges and the tree.....
for a very few daze I noticed what was 'paper' in the back yard and was busy with packing up junk, insurance, and shipping to the factory for repairs...so finally went out back to pick up the 'waste paper' it was one of those plastic pipes hit by the shot, and blown in pieces...plastic and all...go figger....and so the shot killed some of the hedges they turned black, and so I looked around and found the lightening damage that came outta the side of the tree and blew all that up.....

I figgered the tree for toast, and didn't want another problem, so down it came....

:flash:

 

[mrvette]

I understand you guys running a genny like that, however, I cannot condone it. Guys die every year from this, and it only takes once.
Be forewarned, if utility guys are out and hear these running, they do that area last, and take their time. Lives are at stake here. That code has a very clear reason for being there.
As for an iso tranny at a residence, I'm with Jim. It has very little value if at all, and just uses more energy.

Like BBC asked, if the main is off, what's the problem?

NONE, but i'ts that friggin' IF that is the problem...wife walks by the open box door and flips switch, kid does the same, guy dunno WTF he is doing/etc....

putting a lineman's life at stake in some bucket truck handling a 7.5Kv transformer that is live, and he don't know it....because it is backfed from some other generator while the overhead normal feed/hot line is killed so he can rework it/network.....that is a bad news bear....

NFW I be up there....find me a wire from hell and short out the world before I get bit by 5 kw of that shit.....

:stirpot:

 

[Cherry]

I understand you guys running a genny like that, however, I cannot condone it. Guys die every year from this, and it only takes once.
Be forewarned, if utility guys are out and hear these running, they do that area last, and take their time. Lives are at stake here. That code has a very clear reason for being there.
As for an iso tranny at a residence, I'm with Jim. It has very little value if at all, and just uses more energy.

Mind if I say this?

Its the human factor, After the fact "possible someone besides you turns on the main breaker while the generator is on line, THERE WILL BE A MASSIVE EXPLOSION AT THE HOUSE POWER PANEL!!!. LOSS OF LIFE , THIRD DEGREE BURNS, HOUSE FIRE, DESTRUCTION OF CONNECTED HOUSE HOLD ITEMS, ALSO POSSIBLE TO SHORT MAIN FEEDER TRANSFORMER TO THE HOUSE. You are working without a transfer safety lockout. Plus when the two out of phase ckts collied your little generator is going to explode into hundreds of fragments. I've seen this happen on drilling rigs! The human factor must be accounted, thus the generator being plugged into a service in the reverse is some what ""Stupid, unsafe, deadly". Spend the money and install a transfer switch, "costly YES, You and your family only have one life.

 

[kwplot34]

I understand you guys running a genny like that, however, I cannot condone it. Guys die every year from this, and it only takes once.
Be forewarned, if utility guys are out and hear these running, they do that area last, and take their time. Lives are at stake here. That code has a very clear reason for being there.
As for an iso tranny at a residence, I'm with Jim. It has very little value if at all, and just uses more energy.

Like BBC asked, if the main is off, what's the problem?

I think what Bird is getting at,What if somebody did not turn their main off or did a botch wiring job. Somebody could get hurt or killed then. And an electrician out there hearing all those generators running probably gets a little nervous :twitch:
BTW my neighbors hate me when i fire mine up when the lights go out,some have threatened to steal it while i'm a sleep.

 

[mrvette]

I understand you guys running a genny like that, however, I cannot condone it. Guys die every year from this, and it only takes once.
Be forewarned, if utility guys are out and hear these running, they do that area last, and take their time. Lives are at stake here. That code has a very clear reason for being there.
As for an iso tranny at a residence, I'm with Jim. It has very little value if at all, and just uses more energy.

Like BBC asked, if the main is off, what's the problem?

I think what Bird is getting at,What if somebody did not turn their main off or did a botch wiring job. Somebody could get hurt or killed then. And an electrician out there hearing all those generators running probably gets a little nervous :twitch:
BTW my neighbors hate me when i fire mine up when the lights go out,some have threatened to steal it while i'm a sleep.

Reminds me of some storms came through here, nothing direct, just a outer band, enough wind knocked a rotten tree down over lines and into a neighbor's house, took the pole transformer out....fed 5 houses.....so the guy on the corner turned out to be a unfriendly jackass and would not let my neighbor Junior borrow enough electric off a cord to run his saltwater aquarium.....

meanwhile Chuck on my other side is letting me run my job site cord into my house from his washer outlet in the garage, and so we ran the TV, computer, refrig, and maybe a light or two....then we ran a series to two orange yard cords across my yard from Chucks into Juniors to get his fish saved......damn joint looked like a spaghetti factory.....

:smash:

freeking people on the corner are assholes....they need shit and die....

:suicide:

 

[turtlevette]

THERE WILL BE A MASSIVE EXPLOSION AT THE HOUSE POWER PANEL!!!. LOSS OF LIFE , THIRD DEGREE BURNS, HOUSE FIRE, DESTRUCTION OF CONNECTED HOUSE HOLD ITEMS, ALSO POSSIBLE TO SHORT MAIN FEEDER TRANSFORMER TO THE HOUSE. You are working without a transfer safety lockout. Plus when the two out of phase ckts collied your little generator is going to explode into hundreds of fragments. I've seen this happen on drilling rigs! The human factor must be accounted, thus the generator being plugged into a service in the reverse is some what ""Stupid, unsafe, deadly". Spend the money and install a transfer switch, "costly YES, You and your family only have one life.

I know you're trying to scare people into not doing this which is OK, but nothing is going to explode. The breaker at the gen, or in the panel or both will trip and protect the gen. And its impossible to connect a single phase gen reverse phased.

Bottom line. Freeze to death or connect the damn thing to the panel.

You can buy locks to make sure the main isn't closed by the wife or kids.

Why the hell would the wife or kids frig with that? I'd kick some ass.

 

[SmokinBBC]

I understand you guys running a genny like that, however, I cannot condone it. Guys die every year from this, and it only takes once.
Be forewarned, if utility guys are out and hear these running, they do that area last, and take their time. Lives are at stake here. That code has a very clear reason for being there.
As for an iso tranny at a residence, I'm with Jim. It has very little value if at all, and just uses more energy.

Mind if I say this?

Its the human factor, After the fact "possible someone besides you turns on the main breaker while the generator is on line, THERE WILL BE A MASSIVE EXPLOSION AT THE HOUSE POWER PANEL!!!. LOSS OF LIFE , THIRD DEGREE BURNS, HOUSE FIRE, DESTRUCTION OF CONNECTED HOUSE HOLD ITEMS, ALSO POSSIBLE TO SHORT MAIN FEEDER TRANSFORMER TO THE HOUSE. You are working without a transfer safety lockout. Plus when the two out of phase ckts collied your little generator is going to explode into hundreds of fragments. I've seen this happen on drilling rigs! The human factor must be accounted, thus the generator being plugged into a service in the reverse is some what ""Stupid, unsafe, deadly". Spend the money and install a transfer switch, "costly YES, You and your family only have one life.

Ok. That explains it quite clearly. Guess I need to get an electrician.

 

[Jsup]

OK, here's the deal, I've been in this house since 2002. I have used the generator exactly once for about an hour. If the generator is on, I am home.

NOBODY in this house touches the generator except me. Period. No one ever will.

The only way this happens is if I do something stupid. The level of frequency that this happens is so insinificant I am not spending $500 on a fail safe switch. I just don't see that happening. It's so infrequent to be sloppy, I am well aware of the protocol.

 

[010752]

Also, because of the winds here, a couple of times I have gotten unequal voltage on each leg into the main panel (70v on 1 leg and 160v on the other), ended up as a deteriorated neutral connection at the pole, power company came out and fixed immediately both times. Maybe because they use aluminum wire in all this salty windy air???

There should be a ground rod at your meter too. You could put one in easily.

Have a good ground rod per code 5/8" x 8ft copperclad with teardrop and #4.
Both times it was their neutral at the pole connection.

Surprising we don't have the dual rod thing down here because we are 100% sand everwhere. But they are very strict on the extra bonding here for pool decks, screen enclosures fences etc even all motors and appliances. I know they don't like separated ground rods called it "jumping grounds" or something.

Lightning did hit a tree out front once, blew the ground clamp off the rod, blew every low voltage lite fixture in the house, blew the garage door opener, destroyed four fairly new tires, alternator, electronic speedo, big chunk of concrete out of driveway, and finally killed the mohogany tree next door. All this was long after my neutral issues.

That's an "auxilary ground rod." They are fine for lightning when the main ground is sound. Sounds like the ground for their nuetral at the transformer is bad/poor. Do yourself a favor, and set another rod 6' minimum from the first one, and tie them with a #6 solid. There is no law against it. Hell, you could bury a bare 4/0 copper 12" down all around the house if you like.
Power ground conductors must have a bending radius of 6 times the wire diameter. 8 times for lightning protection. HV does not like turns.
Post office specs, which are good nationally, call for a ground rod at each light pole. #6 bare to welded connection. House ground faults return thru the ground wires to the main. Lightning faults seek the path of least resistence, and go right down the pole, and into the aux ground, taking the #6 route, minimising damage to the grounded house conductor.

When it happened to me I did a little bit of googling and found some crazy info.
About the safest place is inside a 4 sided steel box like a shipping container.
Inside a car with rubber tires , rubber gloves etc doesn't mean squat. And if you make sure both your feet are perpendiclar to the lightning strike you won't get hurt.

University of Florida has a research facility near Gainsville and even with lightning rods etc, most of the strike went thru the building wiring and protective boxes will do nothing on a near hit.

Here is a tidbit

The peak value of the current entering the sim house's electrical circuit was found to be over 80% of the injected lightning current peak, in contrast with the 25% or 50% assumed in two IEC-suggested scenarios. Also, the percentages of current flowing a) to the transformer secondary neutral and b) through the surge protection devices (SPD) were observed to be approximately a factor of two to four greater than those assumed in one of the IEC hypothetical scenarios.

http://www.lightningsafetyalliance.com/documents/florida_proposal.pdf


My German Shepherd must have gotten a jolt at that time too because ever since , she is deathly afraid of thunder.

 

[turtlevette]

And if you make sure both your feet are perpendiclar to the lightning strike you won't get hurt.

:rofl:

where did you get that?

 

[010752]

I understand you guys running a genny like that, however, I cannot condone it. Guys die every year from this, and it only takes once.
Be forewarned, if utility guys are out and hear these running, they do that area last, and take their time. Lives are at stake here. That code has a very clear reason for being there.
As for an iso tranny at a residence, I'm with Jim. It has very little value if at all, and just uses more energy.

Like BBC asked, if the main is off, what's the problem?

I think what Bird is getting at,What if somebody did not turn their main off or did a botch wiring job. Somebody could get hurt or killed then. And an electrician out there hearing all those generators running probably gets a little nervous :twitch:
BTW my neighbors hate me when i fire mine up when the lights go out,some have threatened to steal it while i'm a sleep.

That happens around here a lot after a hurricane. People are just trying to survive and their generator is gone along with the gas that is almost impossible to get when you need it most.

THERE WILL BE A MASSIVE EXPLOSION AT THE HOUSE POWER PANEL!!!. LOSS OF LIFE , THIRD DEGREE BURNS, HOUSE FIRE, DESTRUCTION OF CONNECTED HOUSE HOLD ITEMS, ALSO POSSIBLE TO SHORT MAIN FEEDER TRANSFORMER TO THE HOUSE. You are working without a transfer safety lockout. Plus when the two out of phase ckts collied your little generator is going to explode into hundreds of fragments. I've seen this happen on drilling rigs! The human factor must be accounted, thus the generator being plugged into a service in the reverse is some what ""Stupid, unsafe, deadly". Spend the money and install a transfer switch, "costly YES, You and your family only have one life.

I know you're trying to scare people into not doing this which is OK, but nothing is going to explode. The breaker at the gen, or in the panel or both will trip and protect the gen. And its impossible to connect a single phase gen reverse phased.

Bottom line. Freeze to death or connect the damn thing to the panel.

You can buy locks to make sure the main isn't closed by the wife or kids.

Why the hell would the wife or kids frig with that? I'd kick some ass.

One of the dumb and dumber things I have done.
Was converting a house over to underground entrance. Laid the expensive 2/0 cable on the rear lawn to cut it without screwing it up and used the handiest marker I could find, some white phase tape. Got distracted for a while. Well you guessed it.
After my electrical inspection and the power company put the new meter in, I set the main breaker and couldn't figure out some of the weird readings I was getting on the inside circuits.
Ended up that I had one power leg connected to the power company's neutral etc. :crap:
Never did trip or blow anything. Wondered why I didn't blow the transformer at the pole.
I'm usually pretty carefull, especially with that much amperage.
I think those are the dumb ass mistakes that those codes are designed for.

But I still plug my generator into my dryer outlet. :yahoo:

 

[010752]

And if you make sure both your feet are perpendiclar to the lightning strike you won't get hurt.

:rofl:

where did you get that?

Same place. University of Florida, the lightning studies.
Apparently a certain type of lightning in a certain type of soil (assuming sand since that's all that's here) the current moves away from the point of contact in concentric circles. So if both feet are on the same circle (ring) there is no potential difference and no shock. I guess like birds on a wire.

I'm not a scientist, but it sounded good to me. Pretty funny too. How would you predict.

 

[mrvette]

And if you make sure both your feet are perpendiclar to the lightning strike you won't get hurt.

:rofl:

where did you get that?

Same place. University of Florida, the lightning studies.
Apparently a certain type of lightning in a certain type of soil (assuming sand since that's all that's here) the current moves away from the point of contact in concentric circles. So if both feet are on the same circle (ring) there is no potential difference and no shock. I guess like birds on a wire.

I'm not a scientist, but it sounded good to me. Pretty funny too. How would you predict.

I bet that Harry Diamond Labs on Conn. Ave, NW Wash DC did lots of that work back when they were located there, the successor agency is.....

National Institute of Standards and Technology in G'burg Md....right there off Shady Grove Road.....

should have seen the old copper clad artificial lightening generation room they used for the old Dept/Army tests....they were interested in what happened with electrical storms and AMMO DUMPS....how to store/protect AMMO from accidental explosions from even direct shots....it is large and metal and concentrated in area///perfect target, after all.....

:shocking:

 

[Cherry]

I understand you guys running a genny like that, however, I cannot condone it. Guys die every year from this, and it only takes once.
Be forewarned, if utility guys are out and hear these running, they do that area last, and take their time. Lives are at stake here. That code has a very clear reason for being there.
As for an iso tranny at a residence, I'm with Jim. It has very little value if at all, and just uses more energy.

Like BBC asked, if the main is off, what's the problem?

I think what Bird is getting at,What if somebody did not turn their main off or did a botch wiring job. Somebody could get hurt or killed then. And an electrician out there hearing all those generators running probably gets a little nervous :twitch:
BTW my neighbors hate me when i fire mine up when the lights go out,some have threatened to steal it while i'm a sleep.

That happens around here a lot after a hurricane. People are just trying to survive and their generator is gone along with the gas that is almost impossible to get when you need it most.

THERE WILL BE A MASSIVE EXPLOSION AT THE HOUSE POWER PANEL!!!. LOSS OF LIFE , THIRD DEGREE BURNS, HOUSE FIRE, DESTRUCTION OF CONNECTED HOUSE HOLD ITEMS, ALSO POSSIBLE TO SHORT MAIN FEEDER TRANSFORMER TO THE HOUSE. You are working without a transfer safety lockout. Plus when the two out of phase ckts collied your little generator is going to explode into hundreds of fragments. I've seen this happen on drilling rigs! The human factor must be accounted, thus the generator being plugged into a service in the reverse is some what ""Stupid, unsafe, deadly". Spend the money and install a transfer switch, "costly YES, You and your family only have one life.

I know you're trying to scare people into not doing this which is OK, but nothing is going to explode. The breaker at the gen, or in the panel or both will trip and protect the gen. And its impossible to connect a single phase gen reverse phased.

Bottom line. Freeze to death or connect the damn thing to the panel.

You can buy locks to make sure the main isn't closed by the wife or kids.

Why the hell would the wife or kids frig with that? I'd kick some ass.

One of the dumb and dumber things I have done.
Was converting a house over to underground entrance. Laid the expensive 2/0 cable on the rear lawn to cut it without screwing it up and used the handiest marker I could find, some white phase tape. Got distracted for a while. Well you guessed it.
After my electrical inspection and the power company put the new meter in, I set the main breaker and couldn't figure out some of the weird readings I was getting on the inside circuits.
Ended up that I had one power leg connected to the power company's neutral etc. :crap:
Never did trip or blow anything. Wondered why I didn't blow the transformer at the pole.
I'm usually pretty carefull, especially with that much amperage.
I think those are the dumb ass mistakes that those codes are designed for.

But I still plug my generator into my dryer outlet. :yahoo:

Enjoy your Generator.

 

[big2bird]

NOBODY in this house touches the generator except me. Period. No one ever will.You cannot assume this.

The only way this happens is if I do something stupid. The level of frequency that this happens is so insinificant I am not spending $500 on a fail safe switch. I just don't see that happening. It's so infrequent to be sloppy, I am well aware of the protocol.

I buried a friend who said something similar. he was 1/2 my age, and an electrician to boot.

 

[big2bird]

And its impossible to connect a single phase gen reverse phased.

But not impossible to be out of sync. Come on Jim, ever see what a manual tie does to two gennies 180* out of sync?

We are not talking Sparkies here, were talking "Joe Homeowner."

Just having a disconnected male that is hot gives me the shivers.

What if a "homeowner" hooks up a 220 genny and forgets the center tap tie?
His voltage imbalance will fry his own stuff.

 

[big2bird]

I understand you guys running a genny like that, however, I cannot condone it. Guys die every year from this, and it only takes once.
Be forewarned, if utility guys are out and hear these running, they do that area last, and take their time. Lives are at stake here. That code has a very clear reason for being there.
As for an iso tranny at a residence, I'm with Jim. It has very little value if at all, and just uses more energy.

Like BBC asked, if the main is off, what's the problem?

The main does not disconnect the nuetral feeder. If the gennie is hooked up incorrectly, or the secondary feeder has lost it's ground to the grounded conductor, you could still KILL the guy trying to restore your power.

 

[racervette69]

Lot of good points,,


is this safe??
http://www.green-trust.org/generator/genny_install.htm