To 200 4R or not.

[cgc68]

Looking for advice on what I should do about changing out a TH350 for a 200 4R. I have a 68 NOM Vette with a TH350 and a 370 rear end. Motor is a 327 with around 300 HP. The car is driven for pleasure only. Not a daily driver or race car. I am in the middle of a body off project and have never seen the inside of an auto. I have been reading every post I can find about this subject. I know a lot of you guys have done this.
Do I need to change transmissions? I’ll answer that, no. Do I want to, no (lazy) BUT I want the overdrive. Can I do this, yes with a lot of your help. Do I really need, considering my car usage a stage 2 transmission? By the way what is a stage 2 transmission? I have all the standard shop tools. If I rebuild do I need any special tools?
I believe my choices are
1) Do nothing and stay with the TH350. Easiest just install what I already have and be do with it.
2) Install a standard 200 4R with no upgrades. I can buy a 200 4R from salvage yards for $195 (Olds Delta 88), $200 (Olds Delta 88 or Caprice), $250(Cadillac Fleetwood 88) All have a 30 day guarantee
3) Install an upgraded 200 4R. Upgrade one from choice 2
4) Start with a 200 4R core for $50. At this time no info on this core except price.
If I buy a transmission or core what questions should I ask?
Thanks
charlie

 

[TimAT]

I would suggest your option 3. Get a trans for your list in option 2 and then install a trans-go kit. You'll have the pan off so you can look for trash and get a fair idea of the tranny's health. Go for the lowest mileage one you can find- But remember that GM used different bellhousing bolt patterns- the Caddy and the Olds trans for $195 may be a BOP bolt pattern and won't fit your Vette. Make sure you get a Chevy bolt pattern.

 

[mrvette]

You doing a frame off restification, you have a set of adjustable/replaceable tips on a snap ring pliar set.....you got enough to do a 200 4r tranny.....Tim knows, he seen my shop rode in my car....

you set up a sheet of plywood on some saw horses, and tear that thing down nice and careful with decent ATSG service guide....and then follow directions in the rebuild....

replace pump, converter, lock up solenoid, all soft parts, and also install the TRANS GO large shift kit.....lay the parts out logically and carefully as you pull it apart....so you see the sequence on the bench the way the diagrams are drawn on the paper.....

It took me two days total....and it was ready to go in.....

it's not that hard really, I bet you CAN do it....total cost 500 bux....

sell your operational 350 to some pickup owner for couple hundred and get with it.....

who knows?? You can learn something too.....take it from a guy who was scared of auto trannies for tooooooo long a time, finally decided to get smart and try it.....lots easier than you know......:bounce:

 

[cgc68]

Thanks TimAT and mrvette.
I have a couple guys looking for more transmission choices. If you don't mind I'll get back with you.

charlie

 

[SIXFOOTER]

I am with Tim and Gene, I did it never seeing the inside of one either. It cost more than the 500 Gene spent, my total was around $800. I got a video off ebay and found an ebay guy that sold tranny parts. I ripped it all apart, ordered the parts and took 2 days to put it back together. I built it stage 2 or a little better.
I wouldn't rebuild an entire car and leave the tranny untouched, and concidering the price of gas and the performance enhancements there is No reason to not do it.

 

[mrvette]

I am with Tim and Gene, I did it never seeing the inside of one either. It cost more than the 500 Gene spent, my total was around $800. I got a video off ebay and found an ebay guy that sold tranny parts. I ripped it all apart, ordered the parts and took 2 days to put it back together. I built it stage 2 or a little better.
I wouldn't rebuild an entire car and leave the tranny untouched, and concidering the price of gas and the performance enhancements there is No reason to not do it.

Hey Danny, how you doing man??....

I agree with everything above and for sure, any of these old vettes need a overdrive of some sort, unless you just don't do any freeway driving at 60+ mph.....I never saw the need for one in the Wash DC area....taffic is a crawl at 3 AM......screw the rush hours....

in Florida, we FLY, well untill the EPA takes over again.....

I was fortunate in that a core was gotten from a local core house here in Jax....60 bux.....Mitchell tranny supply, another local has all the parts, he knows his shit, and set me up with the big TRANS GO shift kit....accept no other....the rest don't impress me one damn bit from bitter experiences over the years....I remember back long time ago I got better performance doing my OWN version of a 'shift kit'.....before they were ever heard of....
some 40 years ago....but I never did get involved with the total dis assembly of the tranny and rebuilding them...it's a LOT easier than you think, just takes a bit of nerve...and a easy slo dis assembly, laying out the parts on a plywood, in order as removed...and read the damn ATSG guide from cover to cover, which for a guy like me is very hard to relate printed material to the actual machine, until it get to tearing it apart....THEN and ONLY THEN can I relate to it.....:loveletter:

I encourage guys to dig into these things, as it's NOT ROCKET SCIENCE and it would have been a good career for me to get into years ago....

because everyone else is scared shitless of these 'bogymen' under the tranny tunnel....

 

[cgc68]

I'm back. I think I have finally settled on a 200 4r transmission to rebuild. It has the universal bolt pattern. Info off the tag is 164 1T83OG0325. This is what I could find out looking on the internet; 164 Julian Date, 1 First Shift, T Plant, 83 Model Year, OG Letter Code for full size GM Car (B/D Body), 0325 Serial #. The junkyard knows nothing about it. It has been setting for a long time undercover and "looks" good. If it's not repairable I get my $50 back.
My question is , is there a reason not to by this one?

charlie

 

[mrvette]

On that tag somewhere should be a 3 letter code, mine was C something....

but that tells the type of car it came from....supposedly, but my info on that tends to be somewhat conflicting.....

long as it came from a V8 car you are fine....got a chebby bolt pattern for a V8, you should in there.....the others were smaller like for a V6 unless it was that 4.3......which is a 350 with two missing cylinders....essentially...

main thing is pull the pan and see the trash in it...

between 3 of us we can hold your hand.....:tomato::bonkers: or at least scratch our ass wondering....:yahoo:

 

[cgc68]

Thanks for answering mrvette. I am acting like a Parrot here GM used a 2 letter code in82-85 and the three letter code in 86-90 (per internet info). The code of the tag is OG. OG was used with a 307Y 2.73 B/D body car. I looked it up and the B/D cars were Chevy Caprice, Buick Roadmaster, Olds Cruiser, and Cad. Fleetwood.
I've completely rebuilt a 2004r !! on paper.. I got a ATSG 200 4R Techtran Manual and have read and highlighted the entire sections on disassembly and assembly. I am anxious to get started but boy it sure is getting cold here and I move slowly in cold weather.
Thanks for the offer of help. I will need it a lot of it.

charlie

 

[mrvette]

Thanks for answering mrvette. I am acting like a Parrett here GM used a 2 letter code in82-85 and the three letter code in 86-90 (per internet info). The code of the tag is OG. OG was used with a 307Y 2.73 B/D body car. I looked it up and the B/D cars were Chevy Caprice, Buick Roadmaster, Olds Cruiser, and Cad. Fleetwood.
I've completely rebuilt a 2004r !! on paper.. I got a ATSG 200 4R Techtran Manual and have read and highlighted the entire sections on disassembly and assembly. I am anxious to get started but boy it sure is getting cold here and I move slowly in cold weather.
Thanks for the offer of help. I will need it a lot of it.

charlie

I note Illinois in your location there, you have my sympathies, just use the kitchen table, or counter, toss the little woman aside,.....

wake up with your....well, whatever she chooses, in your mouth.....

there is a reason I moved from Maryland to Florida....it's cold weather.....

good reason....

I suggest the move....housing is only 100 bux/foot under HVAC here....

:thumbs:

 

[cgc68]

I did suggest cutting a hole in the ping pong table but no soap. I lived in Tampa (69-70)for one year when I was in the Army.

charlie

 

[mrvette]

I did suggest cutting a hole in the ping pong table but no soap. I lived in Tampa (69-70)for one year when I was in the Army.

charlie

AH, so you know winter's heat eh??..when telling wife here about my kitchen escapades while single....she just stared....


then I said, 'Yes, dear, those ARE car parts in the dishwasher'....:hunter:

then I had to ask permission to get down from the moon.....

:crylol::crutches:

 

[cgc68]

I finally got the transmission. It needs a complete rebuild.







Thats red RTV sealing the pan, no dip stick or tube, and the output shaft moves up/down/side/side (is that normal?).

charlie

 

[mrvette]

Yeh, without that yoke on there, the shafts will wobble a bit, not flop around and all, just feel loose....the yoke rides on a bearing inside the housing....
like said before a good sheet of plywood on saw horses to give you sorting room, and hold it up in the air with the tail housing in a can so that the shaft is not on the floor, and you should be fine....
upon getting it apart....I cleaned the case inside and out with gasoline and a paint brush, then good type stinky non detergent (petrol based) carb cleaner....I guess lacquer thinner would work as well....
then blast it out with a air jet...

you think your childhood Erector set has parts....you ain't seen nuttin' yet....:hissyfit:

but if I can do it, so can you...take your time....

 

[cgc68]

I tryed to post these pics with the other three but couldn't.





Sure glad to hear the output shaft should move. I am really anxious to get started but it will probably be after Christmas. I may be able to get a little time on it.

charlie

 

[TimAT]

You'll have a real educational experience building a tranny. It's not really difficult, but it does require you to pay attention to details. There are clearances that need to be checked so the clutches don't drag/wear out too fast. And that trans has some torrington bearings that will physically fit either way- only one way is correct and tha's all in the books.
You might find some tips in the THM 400 rebuild thing in the drivetrain thread. A good part of that is specific to a 400, but some applies to all automatics..
If you run into any thing you need some help with, just yelp..

 

[cgc68]

“you think your childhood Erector set has parts....you ain't seen nuttin' yet.... ”
“You'll have a real educational experience building a tranny.”
Thanks for the encouragement guys.:wink:
“If you run into any thing you need some help with, just yelp..” I do have some questions already after reading the ATSG manual. Some I can figure out when it’s necessary but I’ll ask. I have none of the transmission special tools used in the manual.
1. How hard is it to compress the intermediate servo cover to remove the lock ring?
2. How hard is it to compress the 4th clutch return springs?
3. How hard is it to install the sealing rings on the turbine shaft and what does the resizing tool do?
4. Is it necessary to check the intermediate servo band apply pin length?
5. Is it necessary to check the output shaft end play?
6. Is it necessary to check the forward clutch shaft end play?
Since I don’t have the transmission special tools what is the best way for me to do any of the above necessary steps?
Thanks
charlie

 

[TimAT]

Nothing to it. Use a hammer handle to push the cover in slightly, the pop the ring out with a pick or small acrewdriver. You may need to grip the cover with pliers to pull it out a bit, then hook the Oring seal with a pick. Stretch it until it breaks, then pull it out by one end. Cover and everything under it will come right out. [/COLOR]

2. How hard is it to compress the 4th clutch return springs

As I recall, there are not very many, you should be able to compress them by hand.

3. How hard is it to install the sealing rings on the turbine shaft and what does the resizing tool do?

The seal rings are teflon. The install tool stretches them a little bit and the resizing tool gets them back to the original diameter. If they're not nicked or cut you can probably leave them. To get them off, carefully slice them with a razor blade. If you can find a tube that just slips over the shaft, that will make your install tool, then maybe a hose clamp with something around the ID so the edges of the screw threads in the clamp don't damage the seal.

4. Is it necessary to check the intermediate servo band apply pin length?

When (AS) you tear the box down, get that pin out of the servo, put it back into place and push as hard as you can. Mark how much it travels. If you use a new band, do it again and see how much travel you get. I've only ran into a couple of trannys that I had to change the pin length.

5. Is it necessary to check the output shaft end play?

I always thought the GM tooling was a little lax on the output shaft play. (see below)

6. Is it necessary to check the forward clutch shaft end play?

YES! But you need to jack the output shaft to the front. Not a real hard press, just take the slop out. The plastic thrust washer that sets on the output shaft sets the end play.

Since I don’t have the transmission special tools what is the best way for me to do any of the above necessary steps?
Thanks
charlie

And there you go:banghead:

 

[mrvette]

Charlie, I found when doing any tranny, that a good solid workbench and a couple of 6" C clamps and some cut off plywood/2x4 or in my case a some steel stock cut off's from my father's tool box....goes back 80 years now....

I just clamped it all down and did it the easy way....GOD, I"m lazy....

:smash:

 

[TimAT]

Gene has a good point here- it's much easier to teardown/rebuild an autobox if it's hanging with the rear down. (also will drain better!). And when you start stacking it back into the case, you get a better "feel" if everything is OK as you go. Put a part in, turn it to see if it's hung up somehow, add the next part, turn that one, and so on. When you get up to checking endplay, you can stuff a jack or something under the output shaft to hold it into position too. That will pretty well take care of the need for that tool!.