Nice aftermarket EFI section in Nov. HOT ROD magazine

I realize the kits are having to cope with custom manifold castings to their spec, and t-body to do the job, and maybe even custom computers and wiring harnesses....much less injector rails and then injectors.....

I still think 2 grand +++ in a changeout is too damn expensive....

especially since I did my own TPI changeover for some 700 bux, 15 freeking YEARS ago....prices should be a whole lot less today.....WAY less....

350++ bux for a wiring harness is stupid...i'ts a 50 buck item....computer should be worth maybe 200 bux with program.....Hell, any TPI tbody for 70 bux off ebay will work, years ago LINGY made a casting to take a TPI throttle body to a 4 bbl intake...just a cast aluminum EL costing some big bux....400??? that was 15 years ago too......

injectors are WAY in hell over priced too, junkyard set of 12 off a 3.1 or something 22-24 lbs....pick and choose out of the collection...all I"m saying is i'ts not a big deal these days.....seriously...

:fishing::bump:
 
chevy69 said:
They go through a bunch of aftermarket kits, installs, etc...
Click to expand...

18.gif
Cliff notes??
 
Bullshark said:
chevy69 said:
They go through a bunch of aftermarket kits, installs, etc...
Click to expand...

18.gif
Cliff notes??
Click to expand...

I haven't gotten through it all but here's what they cover:

A briefing on 12 different vendors offering EFI kits where they address:
- a little about each company
- what kits they offer
- what options are available
- what is needed outside of using the kits to get on the road
- how do you tune it, and how much it costs.

Then they have feature write ups on 3 additional manufacturers/kits:
- install of the Edelbrock pro-flo kit
- install of a Power Jection kit
- installation of a Mass Flo kit
 
I agree with all posts on this one, it is a nice write up and they are way over priced. I still can't justify 2k to ??k on a new injections set up. The mass-flow setup seems interesting since you don't have to tune it. But at 3k, I could buy a new crate motor with a carb.
 
koni4200 said:
I agree with all posts on this one, it is a nice write up and they are way over priced. I still can't justify 2k to ??k on a new injections set up. The mass-flow setup seems interesting since you don't have to tune it. But at 3k, I could buy a new crate motor with a carb.
Click to expand...

:confused: True, you probably could. But then what? Do you have a old Ford pickup that needs an engine? :D....:stirpot: Just pullin your chain, don't go high rail. We have discussed the pros and cons of EFI vs Carbs around here till we are ready to :suicide: You either understand the benefits or you don't. Your money spend it as you wish. :drink:

Bullshark
 
Bullshark said:
koni4200 said:
I agree with all posts on this one, it is a nice write up and they are way over priced. I still can't justify 2k to ??k on a new injections set up. The mass-flow setup seems interesting since you don't have to tune it. But at 3k, I could buy a new crate motor with a carb.
Click to expand...

:confused: True, you probably could. But then what? Do you have a old Ford pickup that needs an engine? :D....:stirpot: Just pullin your chain, don't go high rail. We have discussed the pros and cons of EFI vs Carbs around here till we are ready to :suicide: You either understand the benefits or you don't. Your money spend it as you wish. :drink:

Bullshark
Click to expand...

MY comment was aimed at the fact you really don't have to spend a lot of bux, that 700 bux is what the whole setup cost me for a TPI some 15 years ago...today the hardware is a 250 bux item, and the chip/calpak is 150 which 100 less than what I paid, obviously I made my own wire harness off junkyard connectors, and a ten buck computer off a 3.1 DPFI engine....1227730.....

:bounce: like anything else, it takes some sweat equity to have for cheeeeeep.....I don't mind working on the car, as being an old ornery ET, I can follow a wiring diagram fairly well, need wire?? cut some harnesses out of some junk GM car, codes are nearly the same, and splice WTF you need wrap and done....I spent maybe 2 days on my initial computer hookup, then maybe 6 years later I did a total rewire job for almost the whole car, and reworked/rerouted the computer wiring also....but then again this car is a rolling hobby.....YMMV....

:bounce::clobbered:
 
For $3000 you can buy a LS1 with accessories... incl computer.... a LT1 is a lot less and probably the best value for the money spent, definitely a better value than $2500 for a aftermarket FI kit....
 
MYBAD79 said:
For $3000 you can buy a LS1 with accessories... incl computer.... a LT1 is a lot less and probably the best value for the money spent, definitely a better value than $2500 for a aftermarket FI kit....
Click to expand...

Pick whatever engine you want. Install your favorite intake / TB, fuel rails, injectors,sensors, used, new or whatever your pocket book allows. Just save $1K for a good afermarket ECU,wire harness, and wideband O2 setup. You will be glad you did. Today, I would pick Accel Thruster and LC-1 UEGO as my best value for the dollar. That may change quickly as the technology rapidly evolves. I know Gene and I differ on this, but I stand by my position that the old GM OEM ECU stuff is crap and not worth the added $ investment of support equipment and tuning time it takes just to get it to a usable level.

Bullshark
 
Bullshark said:
Pick whatever engine you want. Install your favorite intake / TB, fuel rails, injectors,sensors, used, new or whatever your pocket book allows. Just save $1K for a good afermarket ECU,wire harness, and wideband O2 setup. You will be glad you did.
Click to expand...

I agree with this approach.

So just to be clear, I certainly wasn't advocating any of the solutions spelled out in Hot Rod this month - just pointing out that the technology continues to evolve and that more and more players are entering the market. This will ultimately drive pricing down. I would opt for a cheaper solution as well, and if anything, I was dissapointed that these haven't come down in price yet ( hang in there they will). These kits are good for the guys who don't want to sort thru all the wiring and all. I don't mind wiring but a lot of guys get the creeps when they look at a schematic (heck, it's just a roadmap, right?)

Gene - you were somewhat of a pioneer if you took this path 15 years ago. The wiring scared many away but you went for it. My hat is off to you, but a lot of guys are scared of wires :hi:
 
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I don't get it: why would you buy an aftermarket ecu and wiring if you can get all the GM stuff incl. fuel rails, injectors, computer and so on ? Can't get any easier than that ??? Am I missing something ??
The LS1 engines including everything sell for $3000 or even less....
 
MYBAD79 said:
what's wrong with the stock computer? The LS1 runs pretty good with the stock stuff.
Click to expand...

If all you plan to do is install the stock LS1. No plans for any mods such as cam or anything that might enhance the engine performance such as changing the volumetric efficiency (i.e larger throttle body, headers etc.) and are happy with GM's stock setup and tune, then the stock ECU is probably fine. The rub comes when you need to efficiently and accurately re-tune the engine. Sure, you don't have to purchase all the support electronics / equipment if you take it to a professional tuner since they already have it, but they are not cheap, and I don't trust them. Most are shade tree amateurs that do a half azz job. Mail order tunes are even worse. You will need a wide band O2 sensor and the old GM ECUs don't support UEGO. I have seen band-aid work arounds for the GM ECU's but they are just that and are a very poor substitute.

MYBAD79 said:
I don't get it: why would you buy an aftermarket ecu and wiring if you can get all the GM stuff incl. fuel rails, injectors, computer and so on ? Can't get any easier than that ??? Am I missing something ??
The LS1 engines including everything sell for $3000 or even less....
Click to expand...

The aftermarket ECU's allow efficient, accurate, "do it yourself" tuning capability that the old GM stuff doesn't allow without expensive complex addons and still they don't match the capability of aftermarket technology. If you aren't intimidated by re-wiring your stock GM wire harness, then re-terminating the harness with new ECU connectors that interface the aftermarket ECU could save some additional bucks. I built my own engine harness mainly because I didn't like the bulky junk that stock GM or the aftermarket companies provide. I think we talked about how to build rugged custom engine harnesses on another thread sometime earlier??????
So, bottom line is, if you don't want to pay a few more bucks for highly flexible and tailorable aftermarket ECU and/or kit, with do it yourself instructions, then applying a lower cost salvage yard solution with "take what you get" is certainly an option. Not for me though :wink: Trying to bring the old stuff up to today's standard will cost you more in $ and time in the long run.

Bullshark
 
There is a very good thread on thirdgen.org about using a LS1 ECU on a gen1 sbc. Seems like a good cheap alternative execpt for the $800 software to tune it. That seems to be where most of the expence come in any efi system and the main reason I am planning on going with MS this winter.

If someone can find some cheap software that would allow for reprograming and tuning a newer GM ECU then we would be set.
 
A programmer like the Predator is often sufficient, if you install heads/headers and a hot cam you need tuning software like LS1edit. Used LS1 programmers are $200-$250, the Predator being the best IMO :thumbs:
 
chevy69 said:
Gene - you were somewhat of a pioneer if you took this path 15 years ago. The wiring scared many away but you went for it. My hat is off to you, but a lot of guys are scared of wires :hi:
Click to expand...

OK, first off, Bullshark is right for the guys without a soldering iron, so they buy their way out of a problem, and hope/pray that solution works for them....secondarily, they learned nothing....and today, the programming for a old GM computer like 1227730 speed density is so well known by guys like Formatto/Anderson/etc that the chips are well within any specs.....but of course the customer has to explain ALL the changes to the engine.....from pistons UP...miss nothing....these programs are already in the can....

I agree about the LT engines, IF you can find one locally it's a freeking fortune to ship one....

Thanks for the compliment above, but really this extends way far back than the '72 here, to about winter 91-92? when I put my own DPFI setup on a 455 Pontiac in my '70 Lemans/GTO convertible th400 12 bolt 323 geared TOW CAR for the boat.....1000 cfm tbody on it lo impedance injectors, I had a hippy dippy machinest weld up the injector bosses and tbody mods to fit, I did my own sloppy looking plumbing for fuel plenum since it was a dual plane mani....

the system was designed by Bendix in Newport News and appeared on Sevills and Sedan DeVilles in the 70's engines were the Olds 350, caddy 425, and some reported 500 ci engines (never seen one) supposed to be one year only in '75 for the last of the El Dorados......

Bendix was bought by Allied-Signal who I talked to with the development I was doing....it was a analogue computer with no O2 sensor feedback, even though it was provided for....the box was a bit larger/heavier than the 1227730 we know today.....

The system I had was a junkyard pull off a '79 Sedan De Ville, and so with that 1000 cfm tbody, on that 455 Pontiac engine I could go into a 10% grade on I 70 just west of Fredrick Md, heading north to I 81.....and go in with my 2900 lbs boat, 4100 lbs car with 26 gallon caddy fuel tank, ME, g/friend, two kids and a days worth of tubing crap/lunch locker/etc about another 1000 lbs .....so roughly 8000 lbs.....start the 4 mile grade at about 80 mph, and open up that 550 ft lbs to work, the moan and groan was loud, kids planted back in the seats, Poncho went to work.....100 mph at top of the hill under the Appalachian trail golden arches.....passing ALL the traffic.....then I"d lift and the rig would slo to 60 without me even tapping the brakes....NEVER did that going downhill, quick way to die.....

That stupid goat, without any load on it, and just a breath of tap on the gas...would scat 16 ways from shitless.....

It was published in Hi Perf Pontiac rag Feb '95 issue....

so no this vette was not my first DPFI project, it was my 3rd actually, the boat above....

was a 20' Bayliner with a 2100 4 cyl Volvo engine and i/o.....I put on a B230f DPFI rail, and pump, and ran the whole thing with a Grand Am computer which had X1, X2 inputs for the injector firing pulses....I generated that at the crank with some infrared diodes from radio shack mounted around a hole in the pulley....
btw, the DPFI on the Pontiac got me an extra 4 mpg around town, maybe slightly better than that really....14 around town, 16 on the road....
the boat....DOUBLED it's economy and not kidding, went up 3 prop sizes for it too....from a 3 bladed aluminum prob to a 3 blades cupped stainless and 1" larger diameter, when I cracked that throttle, none of that maybe do I wanna go type acceleration, it dug out like a CAR, slam you back and on plane in a boat length...type thing.....INSTANT response,

I did it by myself in the garage like the goat....called the BIA/and national USCG /BIA head engineer on boating safety...right down the road in Wash DC.....for advice on how to hook up the fuel plumbing...most boats at the time were NOT fuel injected at ALL, let alone DPFI......

all this happened like I said in the early 90's.....while still remodeling houses, and taking care of kids every other weekend and partying hardy....:crap:
 
Fuelie74 said:
There is a very good thread on thirdgen.org about using a LS1 ECU on a gen1 sbc. Seems like a good cheap alternative execpt for the $800 software to tune it. That seems to be where most of the expence come in any efi system and the main reason I am planning on going with MS this winter.

If someone can find some cheap software that would allow for reprograming and tuning a newer GM ECU then we would be set.
Click to expand...

Fuelie, It is more than software. In order to tune an LS1 engine, you would need to purchase an emulator with added wide band O2 capability. Moates offers their RoadRunner LS1 Emulation Hardware along with the license fees for either EFI Live or TunerCat Software. By the time your done you have spent more than the $1.1k and that doesn't count the LC-1 or LM-1 wide band O2 sensor. See the following link

http://www.moates.net/roadrunner/


Bullshark

MyBad, with all due respect, I wouldn't waist my money on a Predator. It offers limited flexibility and relies on canned configurations. The approach described on Third Gen using Moates's Road Runner is much better. Just my humble opinion
 
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Makes me wonder if a LS engine would run and do as well with the older simpler computer, and just one or maybe two O2 sensors....say like a LT1-4 engine series....

or would it loose a lot in performance, and especially I wonder the affects of loosing sequential and just going batch fire like my old shit....

:crutches::chinese:
 
mrvette said:
Makes me wonder if a LS engine would run and do as well with the older simpler computer, and just one or maybe two O2 sensors....say like a LT1-4 engine series....

or would it loose a lot in performance, and especially I wonder the affects of loosing sequential and just going batch fire like my old shit....

:crutches::chinese:
Click to expand...

You would need something else to control spark then since they don't have a distributer. I beleive MSD makes a box for that now. I don't think it would loose power on WOT being batch fired but you might loose some on low to mid throttle and you fuel mileage would suffer.
 
The reason I brought up the LS1 is cost: the aftermarket EFI system is how much ? $1500-$2000 ??
For less than $3000 you can get a complete engine with EFI, all accessories and the computer and all wires.
I'm sure the stock LS1 runs as good or better than a gen1 SB with a $2000 EFI setup and there's really no need for much tuning. I was happy with the Predator but used it mainly for the fan settings and shift firmness on the auto tranny. It is not very flexible but for $200 a good value. Would I buy it new at MSRP ($420) ? No.......
Looking at cost and value for the money I probably should have done the LS1 conversion when I bought the TKO and the 383 instead.... :banghead:
 
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