C3 Rear Toe Control?

BBShark

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I was thinking about toe control with a C3 that is caused by the in/out movement of the control rod/axle shaft moving in an arc (with suspension movement up/down). Lets say the in/out movement is an 1/8 inch.

What if the front pivot of the trailing arm was free to slide in/out on the bolt and you had a short control rod that was mounted near the front of this sliding pivot point? So, as the wheel/tire moves in/out, the trailing arm pivot move in/out equally.
 
I thought the same way years ago, when hearing of the problem, but have NO clue how to make it work without going nutz.....:crutches::bonkers:
 
A short control rod would create toe movement as well... You would have to match the length and position of the upper arm (half shaft) with a toe control rod to achieve zero/minimal toe change. Much like what 69427 is looking to do with the shorter toe control rods on his C4 setup.

I wonder what negatives there would be to having the T/A sliding on that bolt? Binding maybe?
 
A short control rod would create toe movement as well... You would have to match the length and position of the upper arm (half shaft) with a toe control rod to achieve zero/minimal toe change. Much like what 69427 is looking to do with the shorter toe control rods on his C4 setup.

I wonder what negatives there would be to having the T/A sliding on that bolt? Binding maybe?

Only thing I cold come up with was a linear bearing, but unsure how to seal it to the road crap....tricky move for just a degree or two toe change....I dunno it's worth it....

so I never did anything....
 
A short control rod would create toe movement as well... You would have to match the length and position of the upper arm (half shaft) with a toe control rod to achieve zero/minimal toe change. Much like what 69427 is looking to do with the shorter toe control rods on his C4 setup.

I wonder what negatives there would be to having the T/A sliding on that bolt? Binding maybe?

I'm talking about a control rod at the front (pivot end) of the trailing arm. Therefore the rod would be short.
 
I thought about using a toe link with the trailing arm but eventually went with a arms. While looking at it I had considered a pivot point on the arm vs. moving the front pivot. I thought making a pivot point might be easier. Pivot at top and bottom of arm.
 
I think the only good way to fix this problem (though I have my doubts as to how much of an impact that it has when driving) is to go with a C5/C6 style multi-link rear end with heim joints in order to minimize any change in toe as the wheel moves up and down. You're going to need a custom hub and at least five links per side (not counting the halfshaft), along with custom halfshafts with sliding sections or CV joints to keep the deflection in check.

Using a stock-style trailing arm, you're going to have some toe deflection no matter what you do. However, a sliding or CV joint halfshaft with a link above it and spherical bearings at the front of the trailing arms should cut down on the change. The rubber T/A bushings cause any number of sins.
 
I think the only good way to fix this problem (though I have my doubts as to how much of an impact that it has when driving) is to go with a C5/C6 style multi-link rear end with heim joints in order to minimize any change in toe as the wheel moves up and down. You're going to need a custom hub and at least five links per side (not counting the halfshaft), along with custom halfshafts with sliding sections or CV joints to keep the deflection in check.

Thats not at all what I'm talking about. Your "solution" to toe control in a C3 is changing the entire rear to a C5/6? Good luck with that, let me know when your done!

Using a stock-style trailing arm, you're going to have some toe deflection no matter what you do.

This is not true at all. What is "toe deflection"?
 
I proposed this years ago, called it front free floating TA w/ toe control. there should be topics here and on CF. I once did a test model on solidworks but I don't think I have it anymore. Biggest prob would be lubing the TA bolt
 
Are you looking to do something like this? Go to post #13, I can't post the pic on the pc I'm on. I believe the trailing arm slides free up front.

http://irsforum.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=244

Ralphy

I can't see the front of the trailing arm:

47685118d1322415525-red-scca-vintage-race-corvette-f6.jpg
 
I think the only good way to fix this problem (though I have my doubts as to how much of an impact that it has when driving) is to go with a C5/C6 style multi-link rear end with heim joints in order to minimize any change in toe as the wheel moves up and down. You're going to need a custom hub and at least five links per side (not counting the halfshaft), along with custom halfshafts with sliding sections or CV joints to keep the deflection in check.

Thats not at all what I'm talking about. Your "solution" to toe control in a C3 is changing the entire rear to a C5/6? Good luck with that, let me know when your done!

I'm not planning to do it. However, I'm thinking of this from the physics involved - if the rear wheel is on a trailing arm that's fixed at the front, and has no ability to move in and out to stay in a plane with that front fixed point on the trailing arm, it's going to move in an arc - and when it does, the total toe is going to change. As the tire moves in the arc around the differential, held by a fixed front point, the angle of the tire is going to change. This is why they went to a multilink setup starting with the C4 (there's a nice discussion of this in Corvette From the Inside). In order to keep the toe change minimized, there would need to be another link added above the halfshaft and the center point would have to have the ability to move in and out in relation to the differential in order to keep the wheel in the same plane as much as possible.

It would be a fun project, but I'm happy with the handling of my car with the aircraft-grade spherical bearings up front and VB&P dual-mount rear spring in back. It's not a Ferarri, but it handles well.

Using a stock-style trailing arm, you're going to have some toe deflection no matter what you do.

This is not true at all. What is "toe deflection"?[/QUOTE]

The stock setup using the halfshaft as the upper suspension link combined with a long trailing arm with a fixed pivot at the front is going to cause the wheel to move in a combination of two arcs as it moves up and down (essentially along part of the face of a sphere, if my mental model is accurate). There isn't any way around it without some significant redesign. IMHO, replacement halfshafts with CV joints and some additional bracketry for an upper link would be the simplest solution, though I have no idea why no one has ever come up with one. The more radical aftermarket suspension kits seem to favor six-link setups similar to the C5/C6 design. The C4 was an improvement over the C3, but the engineers realized that it still had some toe control issues. TT's floating T/A would also work, but IMHO would require about as much effort as a multi-link, and quite possibly more frame and body mods.

"Toe deflection" was just how I thought to describe the change in total toe as the wheel moves along its two arcs. Maybe not the most technical term, but descriptive. The amount of total toe deflects from the resting alignment shop setting as the wheel moves.
 
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BBShark,
I have seen more pics of the IRS days gone by. Seems I even read a bit on how the front of the T Arm is put together. Says the car was owned by Clair Ball. You did notice the rear link is longer than the halfshafts?

Vintage 1968 Corvette Race Car Hundreds of SCCA WINS
47685790d1322925410-red-scca-vintage-race-corvette-020.jpg


Ralphy
 
I think the only good way to fix this problem (though I have my doubts as to how much of an impact that it has when driving) is to go with a C5/C6 style multi-link rear end with heim joints in order to minimize any change in toe as the wheel moves up and down. You're going to need a custom hub and at least five links per side (not counting the halfshaft), along with custom halfshafts with sliding sections or CV joints to keep the deflection in check.

Thats not at all what I'm talking about. Your "solution" to toe control in a C3 is changing the entire rear to a C5/6? Good luck with that, let me know when your done!

I'm not planning to do it. However, I'm thinking of this from the physics involved - if the rear wheel is on a trailing arm that's fixed at the front, and has no ability to move in and out to stay in a plane with that front fixed point on the trailing arm, it's going to move in an arc - and when it does, the total toe is going to change. As the tire moves in the arc around the differential, held by a fixed front point, the angle of the tire is going to change. This is why they went to a multilink setup starting with the C4 (there's a nice discussion of this in Corvette From the Inside). In order to keep the toe change minimized, there would need to be another link added above the halfshaft and the center point would have to have the ability to move in and out in relation to the differential in order to keep the wheel in the same plane as much as possible.

Thanks for explaining to me "the physics" of a C3 suspension.

For others, it looks like a very short rod (maybe 4 inches center to center), located towards the front of the arm might work. I might try to lay this out.

Anyone remember the 4 wheel steer Honda's that had an actuator on the control arm?
 
BBShark,

Didn't the Honda 4 wheel steer, steer differently depending what speed your traveling?

The amount of motion at the front of the TA should be very minimal IMO.

Sam I think the main point of this thread is to negate toe-out. With zero-toe or toe-in, either of which would be an improvement to the C3's toeing out. Correct me if I'm wrong the toeing out of the C3 design causes a bit of over steer.
 
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"At parking lot speeds, this opposite-direction steering also makes the car more maneuverable in tight spots. At freeway speeds, the system automatically switches modes; the rear wheels then turn in the same direction as the fronts. That’s to improve control in situations like diving across multiple lanes for an off-ramp."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/automobiles/beyond-all-wheel-drive-all-wheel-steering.html?_r=0

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sldOdWYzW7U[/ame]

Ralphy
 
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