700R for 600HP and more torque

Jsup

Jsup

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
810
Hey guys, this is my first post here. A good friend told me this is where the technical people hang out.

A little information about my car. 1990 Corvette. 427 Pat Musi built small block. Dart SHP block, Pro1 heads, 240/246 custom grind cam. Can't dyno it, but I'm thinking 575 or so HP on paper. Reality, who knows.

I am working on tuning the car and the transmission finally blew up. Well, not finally, I expected it, just not so soon, I was hoping to get a year or so out of it.

Anyway I have been looking around. I have no problem paying a little extra to get a fully built trans, just making sure I'm doing it right.

I have seen this:
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/4L60E_to_4L80E_Swap.htm

toward the bottom of the page, which looks great, but honestly, it's $6000. A lot of money.

I came across this, which I think I am leaning toward:
http://performabuiltautomatics.com/GM/invincible-series_700r4_4l60e.htm

$2600

Here's the reasons:

1. it seems to have all the top of the line parts, I had someone who knows transmissions look at it, they said with those parts you'd be hard pressed to make a stronger 700R

2. They have a 1 year warranty, which is longer than the 30 days most offer

3. They offer that if the trans ever blows up while you own it, it's a $900 replacment

4. They are pretty local, 2 hours away

5. Good customer service, the guy got on IM chat with me at 11:30 at night

6. They have been in business for years and I can't find anything bad about them

7. They only do performance work

8. they came recommended by a friend

Any insight to Performabuilt? Any suggestions for another company?

I appreciate the comments.
 
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Welcome to Vettemod. Our resident tranny gurus will be along.
BTW, your links are bad. Good luck.
 
Sorry, links fixed

I screw up my first post....great!
 
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Welcome to the motley crew of the Flying Dutchman, under the able helm of rogue captain TT......

:shocking:

as to the tranny, I am not much of a fan of the 700, but since it's a C4 I really dunno you have any choice....so....IMO, with Tim's guidance and some other fellows, I suggest you rebuild it yourself , I understand kinda tricky to do but they can hold your hand.....

I did my own 200 4r in my '72 muncie car....rebuilt in my garage and it's fine to ME...I bet you can do it...:beer::harhar:
 
Gene, good to see a familiar face....in a way.

I was in a car accident, found out today my finger is screwed up and I'm scheduled for surgery a week from monday.

My ability to work on the car is limited till at least Christmas.

I want this thing back on the road next season, so the only way I can do that is buying a trans and have someone put it in, or borrow a lift if I can swing it.

I am sure I'm mentally capable, don't think I'm physically capable in the time I want this done.

But thanks for the vote of confidence.
 
OH shit, sorry to hear that man, you all ok other than the finger?? hope so...

Yeh, I got arthritis all over so it's hard moving, and so it takes me forever to do jack diddly....

that shop up the road sounds like the way to fly, as at least they are local to you.....

I know doing a tranny right is about 500 bux in parts, and personally I would use a TRANS GO full monte shift kit....none other.....

I had a 700 in my '72 and it had another kit in it, and not happy with it's operation one damn bit...so when the 3/4 clutch pack went yet again, it was byby....

:gurney::gurney::banghead:
 
mrvette said:
OH shit, sorry to hear that man, you all ok other than the finger?? hope so...

Yeh, I got arthritis all over so it's hard moving, and so it takes me forever to do jack diddly....

that shop up the road sounds like the way to fly, as at least they are local to you.....

I know doing a tranny right is about 500 bux in parts, and personally I would use a TRANS GO full monte shift kit....none other.....

I had a 700 in my '72 and it had another kit in it, and not happy with it's operation one damn bit...so when the 3/4 clutch pack went yet again, it was byby....

:gurney::gurney::banghead:
Click to expand...

Thanks man, yeah, other than my finger I'm fine. First accident since 1992. My new CTS to boot.

340552093.jpg
 
That sux. Glad you weren't hurt.

I like the 700 trans except for a couple of things and it looks like you may have stumbled on to a couple of places that have the weak spots worked out.

Back in the early days of the 700, the weak spots were the rear planetary set, followed by the sun shell, the front pump, and the input shaft. When you got past the '89 model year, most of that was fixed, except for the input shaft. If you got one to really working right and had the HP, it'd pop the input shaft when it made the 1-2 shift. I've only seen a couple of those broken. And that problem seems to have all but gone away. Maybe they had some bad heat treat? Anyway, if you're willing to spend the bux, either one of those you found should work well. If you may be thnking about cranking up the HP in the future, look close at that 4L80E they have. Even though you'll need the computer to drive the trans, that one is basically a TH400 with an OD. And with a touch of work will be enough to carry you up on the HP ladder.
As Gene said, the TRANS-GO kit is about the best one out there for my $$, but lots of times unless you build it yourself, you can spec what you want, but how do you know that's what you get?
Frank will likely drop in here before too long also. I've been out of doing trannys all the time for a while, but he's in there everyday.
Pay close attention to the final gear ratio and what you have for a rear axle. The key to getting good performance is a combination of the right engine, (cam, heads, carb), and then right down to trans gear ratio in 1st and OD, then the right rear axle and tire
diameter. Everything gets into the act.

Keep us posted on progress and your choices!!
 
Jsup said:
mrvette said:
OH shit, sorry to hear that man, you all ok other than the finger?? hope so...

Yeh, I got arthritis all over so it's hard moving, and so it takes me forever to do jack diddly....

that shop up the road sounds like the way to fly, as at least they are local to you.....

I know doing a tranny right is about 500 bux in parts, and personally I would use a TRANS GO full monte shift kit....none other.....

I had a 700 in my '72 and it had another kit in it, and not happy with it's operation one damn bit...so when the 3/4 clutch pack went yet again, it was byby....

:gurney::gurney::banghead:
Click to expand...

Thanks man, yeah, other than my finger I'm fine. First accident since 1992. My new CTS to boot.


OH man, bad memories....seems that in some 1/2 century of driving, EVERY damn time I have a decent car I have something happen, usually totally off the wall.....longest time for a new car has been 6 months.....
last one for me was 3 years ago I had this '72 looking 'passable' not great, not beautiful, but at least not totally fugly......lasted 30 days...someone backed into it.....can't win.....3 years later it's still not fixed good, yet again....kinda lost heart, burnout.....:o:gurney:
Click to expand...
 
TimAT said:
That sux. Glad you weren't hurt.

I like the 700 trans except for a couple of things and it looks like you may have stumbled on to a couple of places that have the weak spots worked out.

Back in the early days of the 700, the weak spots were the rear planetary set, followed by the sun shell, the front pump, and the input shaft. When you got past the '89 model year, most of that was fixed, except for the input shaft. If you got one to really working right and had the HP, it'd pop the input shaft when it made the 1-2 shift. I've only seen a couple of those broken. And that problem seems to have all but gone away. Maybe they had some bad heat treat? Anyway, if you're willing to spend the bux, either one of those you found should work well. If you may be thnking about cranking up the HP in the future, look close at that 4L80E they have. Even though you'll need the computer to drive the trans, that one is basically a TH400 with an OD. And with a touch of work will be enough to carry you up on the HP ladder.
As Gene said, the TRANS-GO kit is about the best one out there for my $$, but lots of times unless you build it yourself, you can spec what you want, but how do you know that's what you get?
Frank will likely drop in here before too long also. I've been out of doing trannys all the time for a while, but he's in there everyday.
Pay close attention to the final gear ratio and what you have for a rear axle. The key to getting good performance is a combination of the right engine, (cam, heads, carb), and then right down to trans gear ratio in 1st and OD, then the right rear axle and tire
diameter. Everything gets into the act.

Keep us posted on progress and your choices!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. The rear gear is a 3.07, it's a D36, and I fear it may be temporary.

As for the gear ratios on the 700, are they all the same?

I have no love for the 700, but I have no budget for the 480L. With Performatrans $900 fix it guarantee, at least thats something

any suggestions about the gear ratios and such?
 
Jsup said:
TimAT said:
That sux. Glad you weren't hurt.

I like the 700 trans except for a couple of things and it looks like you may have stumbled on to a couple of places that have the weak spots worked out.

Back in the early days of the 700, the weak spots were the rear planetary set, followed by the sun shell, the front pump, and the input shaft. When you got past the '89 model year, most of that was fixed, except for the input shaft. If you got one to really working right and had the HP, it'd pop the input shaft when it made the 1-2 shift. I've only seen a couple of those broken. And that problem seems to have all but gone away. Maybe they had some bad heat treat? Anyway, if you're willing to spend the bux, either one of those you found should work well. If you may be thnking about cranking up the HP in the future, look close at that 4L80E they have. Even though you'll need the computer to drive the trans, that one is basically a TH400 with an OD. And with a touch of work will be enough to carry you up on the HP ladder.
As Gene said, the TRANS-GO kit is about the best one out there for my $$, but lots of times unless you build it yourself, you can spec what you want, but how do you know that's what you get?
Frank will likely drop in here before too long also. I've been out of doing trannys all the time for a while, but he's in there everyday.
Pay close attention to the final gear ratio and what you have for a rear axle. The key to getting good performance is a combination of the right engine, (cam, heads, carb), and then right down to trans gear ratio in 1st and OD, then the right rear axle and tire
diameter. Everything gets into the act.

Keep us posted on progress and your choices!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. The rear gear is a 3.07, it's a D36, and I fear it may be temporary.

As for the gear ratios on the 700, are they all the same?

I have no love for the 700, but I have no budget for the 480L. With Performatrans $900 fix it guarantee, at least thats something

any suggestions about the gear ratios and such?
Click to expand...

I think the 700 ratios are all the same, 3.0x, 1.8x, 1.00, .70

if you have a mild gear set in the diffy...like nothing wilder than a 308 you have a decent spread, which seemed ok in my '87, but with the 700 and my 336 set in the shark....1st gear was about useless on the street, about a 2 second shift to 2nd at light throttle/normal driving, engine bog if 1/2 way into it.....plus a hugely pissing :evil: downshifting at WOT and wind hell out of the engine for no reason....never stayed in O/drive....

NOW, MY 700 was built with a Superior/Fairbanks shift kit...and so I did not want to get into buying a Trans Go kit and making yet another switch because I was not sure what I was doing under those circumstances....springs, holes in plate, etc....
that even though the superior kits is SUPPOSED to be better from comments....BS far as I know.....but I have to admit I never owned a 700 with a T/G kit in there.....

with my T/G setup 200 4r all those operational complaints are gone.....
durability seems fine so far....but I only have ~425 supposed ft lbs and near 400 hp, you going 50% more....for a 200, all bets are off....

:drink:
 
mrvette said:
Jsup said:
TimAT said:
That sux. Glad you weren't hurt.

I like the 700 trans except for a couple of things and it looks like you may have stumbled on to a couple of places that have the weak spots worked out.

Back in the early days of the 700, the weak spots were the rear planetary set, followed by the sun shell, the front pump, and the input shaft. When you got past the '89 model year, most of that was fixed, except for the input shaft. If you got one to really working right and had the HP, it'd pop the input shaft when it made the 1-2 shift. I've only seen a couple of those broken. And that problem seems to have all but gone away. Maybe they had some bad heat treat? Anyway, if you're willing to spend the bux, either one of those you found should work well. If you may be thnking about cranking up the HP in the future, look close at that 4L80E they have. Even though you'll need the computer to drive the trans, that one is basically a TH400 with an OD. And with a touch of work will be enough to carry you up on the HP ladder.
As Gene said, the TRANS-GO kit is about the best one out there for my $$, but lots of times unless you build it yourself, you can spec what you want, but how do you know that's what you get?
Frank will likely drop in here before too long also. I've been out of doing trannys all the time for a while, but he's in there everyday.
Pay close attention to the final gear ratio and what you have for a rear axle. The key to getting good performance is a combination of the right engine, (cam, heads, carb), and then right down to trans gear ratio in 1st and OD, then the right rear axle and tire
diameter. Everything gets into the act.

Keep us posted on progress and your choices!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. The rear gear is a 3.07, it's a D36, and I fear it may be temporary.

As for the gear ratios on the 700, are they all the same?

I have no love for the 700, but I have no budget for the 480L. With Performatrans $900 fix it guarantee, at least thats something

any suggestions about the gear ratios and such?
Click to expand...

I think the 700 ratios are all the same, 3.0x, 1.8x, 1.00, .70

if you have a mild gear set in the diffy...like nothing wilder than a 308 you have a decent spread, which seemed ok in my '87, but with the 700 and my 336 set in the shark....1st gear was about useless on the street, about a 2 second shift to 2nd at light throttle/normal driving, engine bog if 1/2 way into it.....plus a hugely pissing :evil: downshifting at WOT and wind hell out of the engine for no reason....never stayed in O/drive....

NOW, MY 700 was built with a Superior/Fairbanks shift kit...and so I did not want to get into buying a Trans Go kit and making yet another switch because I was not sure what I was doing under those circumstances....springs, holes in plate, etc....
that even though the superior kits is SUPPOSED to be better from comments....BS far as I know.....but I have to admit I never owned a 700 with a T/G kit in there.....

with my T/G setup 200 4r all those operational complaints are gone.....
durability seems fine so far....but I only have ~425 supposed ft lbs and near 400 hp, you going 50% more....for a 200, all bets are off....

:drink:
Click to expand...

I did a little research into the 200, by the time all the mods are done for my car, I can just about get into the 4l80 listed above, which I know isn't going to break....I think the 200 is still a bit light.
 
Jsup said:
I did a little research into the 200, by the time all the mods are done for my car, I can just about get into the 4l80 listed above, which I know isn't going to break....I think the 200 is still a bit light.
Click to expand...

I think I have posted somewhere that I essentially agree, even though 4000 lbs of GN's are doing something in the tens with God knows WHAT in the way of torque, but they got that boost cranked pretty good.....and a 200 4r lives ok....

but any tranny is rated by torque input rating, not some HP calculation based on rpm/torque.....

I dunno.....methinks at ~500 ft lbs up....well not MY choice for a tranny...

IMO...4L80e, but your problems are weight and HP losses....

cant' win....laws of attrition....

:crap:
 
mrvette said:
Jsup said:
I did a little research into the 200, by the time all the mods are done for my car, I can just about get into the 4l80 listed above, which I know isn't going to break....I think the 200 is still a bit light.
Click to expand...

I think I have posted somewhere that I essentially agree, even though 4000 lbs of GN's are doing something in the tens with God knows WHAT in the way of torque, but they got that boost cranked pretty good.....and a 200 4r lives ok....

but any tranny is rated by torque input rating, not some HP calculation based on rpm/torque.....

I dunno.....methinks at ~500 ft lbs up....well not MY choice for a tranny...

IMO...4L80e, but your problems are weight and HP losses....

cant' win....laws of attrition....

:crap:
Click to expand...

exactly, which is how I came to the conclusion a built 700R is the ticket.
 
Twin_Turbo said:
Get a 4L80E
Click to expand...

Hate the weight, but I agree.....

never had a built enough 400 fail under the damdest punishment....

NEVER....4L80e is supposed to be the successor....

but I have never owned/messed with one personally....

:gurney:
 
The only problem with the 4l80 is that it's six grand with all the adapters and such.

The 700 is half that installed.

I'd LOVE to go that way but budget isn't there.
 
700 gear ratios are

700r4 3.06(1) 1.62(2) 1.00(3) 0.70(4) 2.29(R)

Plus the torque converter multiplication of 2. That's until the converter locks up and then the converter is 1:1. So you get effectively a 6.12 (1st) 3.24 (2nd) and then the lockup should be happening. I've heard the ideal ratio starts around 9 so low would be good. Problem is, most 700's go to 2nd at 15 MPH- way to low to do much good. On the other side, your 3.07 would be good for the OD.

That $900 and the fixit warranty sounds like a pretty good deal.
 
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