DJ Dep
refugee from the other place
How many L-88s with auto trans were bullt? :skeptic:
Question for L-88 experts
- Thread starter DJ Dep
- Start date
SmokinBBC
Well-known member
Not an expert, but I can get you started..according to the corvette "book", there were 20 L88's built in '67, 80 built in '68 and 116 built in '69.
No M35's (powerglides) were put on L88 in '67...so that would make "0" L88 with AT in '67.
The M40 Turbo Hydra had option pricing listed for the base model, and L36 and L68 in '68. I interpret that to mean that "0" L88 received an AT in '68.
The M40 did have option pricing for the L88 in '69 which means that there were some in '69....but certainly less the the 116 total built.
Oh well, doesn't help you much.......
DJ Dep
refugee from the other place
Smokin: On the contrary, you have been VERY helpful!!! The reason I asked is because there is a discussion about "Pure Stock Drags" at the other forum.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=2124824
They are talking about allegedly pure stock L-88 Vettes turning 11 second times with bias ply tires. I know for a fact that with two spark plug wires disconnected on my old Mustang GT with a 4-speed, it was nearly impossible to keep bias ply (Polyglas GT) tires from going up in smoke. So I have to assume they are all running autos and they are probably not even close to "pure stock" as far as the rest of the car is concerned. I was just wondering if the L-88 ever came with an automatic. I always assumed it was a race-only engine and they all came with Muncie rock crushers for transmissions.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=2124824
They are talking about allegedly pure stock L-88 Vettes turning 11 second times with bias ply tires. I know for a fact that with two spark plug wires disconnected on my old Mustang GT with a 4-speed, it was nearly impossible to keep bias ply (Polyglas GT) tires from going up in smoke. So I have to assume they are all running autos and they are probably not even close to "pure stock" as far as the rest of the car is concerned. I was just wondering if the L-88 ever came with an automatic. I always assumed it was a race-only engine and they all came with Muncie rock crushers for transmissions.
DJ Dep
refugee from the other place
BTW...here's a website with muscle car times. And you can figure most of the cars on this list had air cleaners removed and other tweaks done by the testers that supposedly the Pure Stock Drag racers aren't allowed to do. Just doesn't make any sense that ALL of these cars are SLOWER than the allegedly "Pure Stock" cars.
http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/general/musclecars-50fast.shtml
http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/general/musclecars-50fast.shtml
SmokinBBC
Well-known member
Gotta agree with you on this. 16 on the list is a '69 L88 AT with 3.36's runiing 13.56...now it's running 2 seconds quicker in stock form?
Wish my vette would do that
Dep,
I am glad to see some pure stock interest here. Before I direct a comment toward this I want to give you a few numbers with a little further breakdown.
1967 L-88 Recorded standard production* was 20. All 20 were 4spd. Cars.
1968 L-88 Recorded standard production* was 80. All 80 were 4spd. Cars.
1969 L-88 Recorded standard production* was 116. 99 were 4spd. And 17 were M40 auto (TH 400)
*Keep in mind that there were many more that were made by Chevrolet for R&D as well as home built and dealer versions that utilized replacement engines.
Now concerning your suspicion with the pure stock drag cars vs. the magazine tests. The “pure stock” drag rules allow for some modification; but are still really tight. I think that the main difference that you see in the times turned by the magazines “back in the day” vs. that of today is a production car handed from magazine to magazine vs. a purpose built race car built to adhere to the rules; yet be tuned to a razors edge and driven to win.
Here is some food for thought. Chevrolet did not officially condone racing in the years that the L-88 was produced. It is also common knowledge that they even rated the L-88 and Zl-1 lower in h.p. than the milder 3X2 435 h.p. model to discourage the purchase of the vehicle by those that might have the money to buy; but lack the need or skill for the beast. Would it be too far out of line to think that there might be a possibility that the magazine writers were testing a de-tuned version of the real deal? I can remember at least one of the old articles that stated that Zora’s white ZL-1 automatic test mule ran low 11’s with slicks when driven by the writer and that Zora was not satisfied with the driving so he jumped in the car and neutral dropped it to run in the mid 10’s. There are several versions of this story floating around; but I have the actual article somewhere that I will try to dig out.
You might have guessed that I am partial to L-88’s; but many people get so bent out of shape about this pure stock thing that I am always reluctant to say anything. I do feel however that the L-88 was and is one of the best street race vehicles that have ever been produced. If it works in the streets it will work even better at the track, so I am not surprised that there is so much whining (not you)
about the L-88s in the pure stock type of races. I would be much more suspicious about a 3900lb Buick that is running with the Hemi instead of a 50/50 weight biased, 98” wb, fiberglass bodied, High compression big block Corvette.
I am glad to see some pure stock interest here. Before I direct a comment toward this I want to give you a few numbers with a little further breakdown.
1967 L-88 Recorded standard production* was 20. All 20 were 4spd. Cars.
1968 L-88 Recorded standard production* was 80. All 80 were 4spd. Cars.
1969 L-88 Recorded standard production* was 116. 99 were 4spd. And 17 were M40 auto (TH 400)
*Keep in mind that there were many more that were made by Chevrolet for R&D as well as home built and dealer versions that utilized replacement engines.
Now concerning your suspicion with the pure stock drag cars vs. the magazine tests. The “pure stock” drag rules allow for some modification; but are still really tight. I think that the main difference that you see in the times turned by the magazines “back in the day” vs. that of today is a production car handed from magazine to magazine vs. a purpose built race car built to adhere to the rules; yet be tuned to a razors edge and driven to win.
Here is some food for thought. Chevrolet did not officially condone racing in the years that the L-88 was produced. It is also common knowledge that they even rated the L-88 and Zl-1 lower in h.p. than the milder 3X2 435 h.p. model to discourage the purchase of the vehicle by those that might have the money to buy; but lack the need or skill for the beast. Would it be too far out of line to think that there might be a possibility that the magazine writers were testing a de-tuned version of the real deal? I can remember at least one of the old articles that stated that Zora’s white ZL-1 automatic test mule ran low 11’s with slicks when driven by the writer and that Zora was not satisfied with the driving so he jumped in the car and neutral dropped it to run in the mid 10’s. There are several versions of this story floating around; but I have the actual article somewhere that I will try to dig out.
You might have guessed that I am partial to L-88’s; but many people get so bent out of shape about this pure stock thing that I am always reluctant to say anything. I do feel however that the L-88 was and is one of the best street race vehicles that have ever been produced. If it works in the streets it will work even better at the track, so I am not surprised that there is so much whining (not you)
about the L-88s in the pure stock type of races. I would be much more suspicious about a 3900lb Buick that is running with the Hemi instead of a 50/50 weight biased, 98” wb, fiberglass bodied, High compression big block Corvette.
DJ Dep
refugee from the other place
The reason I asked about transmissions is I figure the ONLY way you are going to get halfway decent times is with an auto. But they are running bias ply tires...not even drag radials. So there must be some major "tweaking" being done to the drivetrain.
I am also a big block fan, although I prefer the L-72 in a 1969 Nova...a la The Yenko SCNova.
http://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/Supercars/69YenkoNova/
I looked at the pics at CF and they show a Vette with the nose WAY up and the ass squatting down. You aren't going to ge that attitude with a stock suspension. So even if the engine classifies as "stock", the suspension, and I suspect the trans and rear end aren't anywhere near stock.
Of course, everyone over there is swallowing that Pure Stock stuff hook line and sinker because they WANT the L-88 Vette to be king of the road. But the facts are most of the cars they are racing against weren't produced to be fast AS IS. That's why, for one thing, you see tiny donut tires on the ZL-1 Camaros and Hemi Cudas. Those cars were made as stripped down taxicabs with just a monster motor, heavy duty trans, and heavy duty rear end. The OWNERS bolted on the slicks, headers, and other go-fast goodies and THEN went to the strip with them. I would imagine a ZL-1 Camaro with the original bias ply tires would produced a world's record burnout all the way down the strip with those little donut tires. Actually, the Hemi Cuda motor LOOKS impressive, but it's not the "race version" of the hemi. It's a detuned street version. The race version had dual Holley carbs and solid lifters and a horrendous compression ration and wild cam. But Chrysler didn't sell that version for street use since the mid 60s. And they weren't covered by a Chrysler warranty. The 1970 Hemi Cuda WAS covered by a factory warranty.
Dep
I am also a big block fan, although I prefer the L-72 in a 1969 Nova...a la The Yenko SCNova.
http://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/Supercars/69YenkoNova/
I looked at the pics at CF and they show a Vette with the nose WAY up and the ass squatting down. You aren't going to ge that attitude with a stock suspension. So even if the engine classifies as "stock", the suspension, and I suspect the trans and rear end aren't anywhere near stock.
Of course, everyone over there is swallowing that Pure Stock stuff hook line and sinker because they WANT the L-88 Vette to be king of the road. But the facts are most of the cars they are racing against weren't produced to be fast AS IS. That's why, for one thing, you see tiny donut tires on the ZL-1 Camaros and Hemi Cudas. Those cars were made as stripped down taxicabs with just a monster motor, heavy duty trans, and heavy duty rear end. The OWNERS bolted on the slicks, headers, and other go-fast goodies and THEN went to the strip with them. I would imagine a ZL-1 Camaro with the original bias ply tires would produced a world's record burnout all the way down the strip with those little donut tires. Actually, the Hemi Cuda motor LOOKS impressive, but it's not the "race version" of the hemi. It's a detuned street version. The race version had dual Holley carbs and solid lifters and a horrendous compression ration and wild cam. But Chrysler didn't sell that version for street use since the mid 60s. And they weren't covered by a Chrysler warranty. The 1970 Hemi Cuda WAS covered by a factory warranty.
Dep
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SmokinBBC
Well-known member
Dep,
I am glad to see some pure stock interest here. Before I direct a comment toward this I want to give you a few numbers with a little further breakdown.
1967 L-88 Recorded standard production* was 20. All 20 were 4spd. Cars.
1968 L-88 Recorded standard production* was 80. All 80 were 4spd. Cars.
1969 L-88 Recorded standard production* was 116. 99 were 4spd. And 17 were M40 auto (TH 400)
*Keep in mind that there were many more that were made by Chevrolet for R&D as well as home built and dealer versions that utilized replacement engines.
Now concerning your suspicion with the pure stock drag cars vs. the magazine tests. The “pure stock” drag rules allow for some modification; but are still really tight. I think that the main difference that you see in the times turned by the magazines “back in the day” vs. that of today is a production car handed from magazine to magazine vs. a purpose built race car built to adhere to the rules; yet be tuned to a razors edge and driven to win.
Here is some food for thought. Chevrolet did not officially condone racing in the years that the L-88 was produced. It is also common knowledge that they even rated the L-88 and Zl-1 lower in h.p. than the milder 3X2 435 h.p. model to discourage the purchase of the vehicle by those that might have the money to buy; but lack the need or skill for the beast. Would it be too far out of line to think that there might be a possibility that the magazine writers were testing a de-tuned version of the real deal? I can remember at least one of the old articles that stated that Zora’s white ZL-1 automatic test mule ran low 11’s with slicks when driven by the writer and that Zora was not satisfied with the driving so he jumped in the car and neutral dropped it to run in the mid 10’s. There are several versions of this story floating around; but I have the actual article somewhere that I will try to dig out.
You might have guessed that I am partial to L-88’s; but many people get so bent out of shape about this pure stock thing that I am always reluctant to say anything. I do feel however that the L-88 was and is one of the best street race vehicles that have ever been produced. If it works in the streets it will work even better at the track, so I am not surprised that there is so much whining (not you)
Glad to see that some of the info in my books is correct!
I've heard different stories about the ratings of the L88. There is even one somewhere that insinuates that chevy low rated the L88 for insurance reasons....but I guess these are al just stories...hard to prove.
But if a true stock L88 can do 11.5, I'd very much like to have one
Here is a link with some more info on the subjecthttp://www.corvettefever.com/eventcoverage/corp_0709_2006_pure_stock_musclecar_drag_races/index.html
Dep,
I don't care what it went in; a big block is just cool. I have a friend that is the original owner of a 68 Dickey Harrell L-72 Nova. I know that it's not a Yenko; but it is still cool. I am a Motion Performance man myself.
Dep,
I don't care what it went in; a big block is just cool. I have a friend that is the original owner of a 68 Dickey Harrell L-72 Nova. I know that it's not a Yenko; but it is still cool. I am a Motion Performance man myself.
Kid Vette
Master-Baiter
Eat you heart out, Dep. These L-88s are for real! From Nov. issue of Corvette Enthusiast:
Same car in F.A.S.T.
Same car in F.A.S.T.
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
PUT a great BIG grin on my face this AM reading them clips/thread :smash:
thing that is shocking is that Julie Pennington said the car weighted 36xx lbs....
3600+ ??? that heavy?? here my '72 vert hotrod here weighed 3300 and I was severely disappointed in that, I thought that was stock weight....
so maybe not too awful shabby in my 'diet' results....
anyone really know the legit weight for a dead stock '72 vert with auto/and a/c....
:fishing:
thing that is shocking is that Julie Pennington said the car weighted 36xx lbs....
3600+ ??? that heavy?? here my '72 vert hotrod here weighed 3300 and I was severely disappointed in that, I thought that was stock weight....
so maybe not too awful shabby in my 'diet' results....
anyone really know the legit weight for a dead stock '72 vert with auto/and a/c....
:fishing:
DJ Dep
refugee from the other place
I read all those articles very closely. A few of things occur to me:
#1 I didn't see what distance they were racing. Was it 1/4 mile or 1/8 mile? If it's 1/8 mile, as many tracks are now racing, that would help explain the times.
#2 Think about it...the times are supposedly in the 11s. What happens if you actually do some mods like headers, slicks, etc. Are they gonna be going as fast as Pro Stockers or Pro Mod cars? Doesn't make much sense.
#3 As already mentioned, cars like these were thoroughly tested by magazines and test drivers back when they were brand new. Some suggest those cars were detuned. That makes NO sense at all. If anything, they are gonna be "ringers" that are much HOTTER than stock in order to make a good impression. And they STILL didn't come close to these times.
Stuff printed in rags like Corvette Fever, Corvette Enthusiast, etc., I always take with a grain of salt. They don't hesitate to tell BS or incomplete info to make an article sound good.
#1 I didn't see what distance they were racing. Was it 1/4 mile or 1/8 mile? If it's 1/8 mile, as many tracks are now racing, that would help explain the times.
#2 Think about it...the times are supposedly in the 11s. What happens if you actually do some mods like headers, slicks, etc. Are they gonna be going as fast as Pro Stockers or Pro Mod cars? Doesn't make much sense.
#3 As already mentioned, cars like these were thoroughly tested by magazines and test drivers back when they were brand new. Some suggest those cars were detuned. That makes NO sense at all. If anything, they are gonna be "ringers" that are much HOTTER than stock in order to make a good impression. And they STILL didn't come close to these times.
Stuff printed in rags like Corvette Fever, Corvette Enthusiast, etc., I always take with a grain of salt. They don't hesitate to tell BS or incomplete info to make an article sound good.
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Dep, IMO, we mounted a couple of 8+ inch Caslers on there it would tear the diffy/suspension right the hell OUTTA there in the second launch if not the first....
so who in hell kidding who???
11 second street machine at 3400 lbs filled with helium???
so who in hell kidding who???
11 second street machine at 3400 lbs filled with helium???
Kid Vette
Master-Baiter
Here's a link to another article. 2006 Pure Stock Drags - Pure Stock & Ready To Rock I'm quite certain that they run 1/4 mile. This will be the third year in a row that an L-88 has cleaned up.
After Pennington's Corvette smoked everything in sight, suspicious competitors were voicing doubts about its legitimacy. Immediately after its last run, Terry Pennington began a voluntary, on-the-spot teardown. Chief Tech Inspector Scott Tiemann broke out the micrometers and cc'ing gear. Competitors were present to see that the Corvette had no illegal parts, no porting anywhere, a 100 percent stock cam, legal bore, stroke, and compression. Naysayers smelled a rat, but instead, got whupped by one.
Looks like Julie has got it going on!
After Pennington's Corvette smoked everything in sight, suspicious competitors were voicing doubts about its legitimacy. Immediately after its last run, Terry Pennington began a voluntary, on-the-spot teardown. Chief Tech Inspector Scott Tiemann broke out the micrometers and cc'ing gear. Competitors were present to see that the Corvette had no illegal parts, no porting anywhere, a 100 percent stock cam, legal bore, stroke, and compression. Naysayers smelled a rat, but instead, got whupped by one.
Looks like Julie has got it going on!
DJ Dep
refugee from the other place
There's more to winning than just the motor. What about the trans and suspension? Note the height of the front end. You don't get a big block Vette that high up under acceleration unless something was changed in the front end.
kwplot34
Heart Attack
You know that track was probably prepped very well,lot's of VHT sprayed all over the place to help those cars launch.
big_G
Blown Member
Unless you have a real strong engine and good traction....
73c34me
Well-known member
All I can say is I have been to every pure stock drag event at this location since 2000. It is 1/4 mile racing and the cars (fast ones) are well sorted out.
DJ Dep
refugee from the other place
On factory bias ply tires and stick shift? I don't think so. They are using Firestone Wide Ovals and Goodyear Polyglas GT tires. I have those Goodyears on my Vette, and even with the engine running like shit, I could light them up just by tapping the gas.
I say unless they have some 90/10 front shocks installed and some custom springs, it ain't gonna happen. Supposedly the tires can't have any traction compound used on them. But Kevin may be right...the track itself may have been "coated". The autos probably have all kinds of tweaks and stall speeds installed in them.
And while the heads may have been to spec, heads for NASCAR engines are also to spec, and they produce ungodly horsepower with the tweaks that are done to them. Thats why their cost is so spectacular. But still...putting huge amounts of horsepower to the ground and getting the tires to hook up and turning times that much faster than they did back when they were new?
I don't think they are anywhere near to what came off the showroom floor.
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Kid Vette
Master-Baiter
I think you're missing the point, Dep. I'm sure they are using some custom compunds/treatments in the tires and the tracks are certainly prepped better than 40 years ago. And I'm sure that everybody is tweaking as much as they can get away with. Not just the L-88s but all the competitors are doing this.
The thing that stands out to me is everybody has always thought that Vettes could not compete in drag racing with the stock rearend and suspension. Now 3 years in a row different Vettes have blown away all the other big dogs from the muscle car heydays of the '60s! I just can't wait for somebody to campaign a '69 ZL-1 Vette!!
The thing that stands out to me is everybody has always thought that Vettes could not compete in drag racing with the stock rearend and suspension. Now 3 years in a row different Vettes have blown away all the other big dogs from the muscle car heydays of the '60s! I just can't wait for somebody to campaign a '69 ZL-1 Vette!!
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