Need some advice on components for my rebuild

[bhays]

Ok guys. I have my engine totally torn down now and need some advice on components for the next step. I am building the engine for a twin turbo setup so need to stay low compression. This is a street car that might see the track just a time or two, 600hp or so with boost is the goal. The engine was a never fired rebuilt Jasper Performance 325hp and I really only tore into it to replace the rotating assembly with forged (that and to learn). I would love suggestion as to actual rotating assembly kits at Summit, etc.

So here are the specs of the block and components I have on hand (would like to reuse what I can).

Block is bored .040 (not ideal but ok from what I am reading)
Four bolt main
World Products S/R Torquer Heads 1.94 intake, 1.5 exhaust valves
WG-1170 Hydraulic Cam .050 Duration: 224° Intake; 224° Exhaust
Cam Lift: .300 Intake; .307 Exhaust
Valve Lift: .450 Intake; .460 Exhaust
Lobe Center: 114° Intake; 114° Exhaust
Intake is a wide runner tuned port, megasquirt ecm

First question: Should I go with a stroker kit since I am buying a new rotating assembly anyway? I know I don't want to increase compression but would there be benefit of a little more lower end grunt to make it more fun for just driving around not really in boost?

Second question: Can I use my camshaft that I already have, I am on a budget with this build and don't want to just throw money at it that's not necessary. I think I do need to go with roller rockers, however and I haven't been able to determine if I have to switch cams to do that or not.

So what would the experts recommend?

 

[CNC BLOCKS]

Ok guys. I have my engine totally torn down now and need some advice on components for the next step. I am building the engine for a twin turbo setup so need to stay low compression. This is a street car that might see the track just a time or two, 600hp or so with boost is the goal. The engine was a never fired rebuilt Jasper Performance 325hp and I really only tore into it to replace the rotating assembly with forged (that and to learn). I would love suggestion as to actual rotating assembly kits at Summit, etc.

So here are the specs of the block and components I have on hand (would like to reuse what I can).

Block is bored .040 (not ideal but ok from what I am reading)
Four bolt main
World Products S/R Torquer Heads 1.94 intake, 1.5 exhaust valves
WG-1170 Hydraulic Cam .050 Duration: 224° Intake; 224° Exhaust
Cam Lift: .300 Intake; .307 Exhaust
Valve Lift: .450 Intake; .460 Exhaust
Lobe Center: 114° Intake; 114° Exhaust
Intake is a wide runner tuned port, megasquirt ecm

First question: Should I go with a stroker kit since I am buying a new rotating assembly anyway? I know I don't want to increase compression but would there be benefit of a little more lower end grunt to make it more fun for just driving around not really in boost?

Second question: Can I use my camshaft that I already have, I am on a budget with this build and don't want to just throw money at it that's not necessary. I think I do need to go with roller rockers, however and I haven't been able to determine if I have to switch cams to do that or not.

So what would the experts recommend?

To build 600 horse or so I would use a better block then a OEM block with stock caps that was never built for what your going to do with it.

To achieve a good HP with a forced inductions deal with seal is key so the block must be plated honed using the same hardware and gasket to be used in the end build which is real critical.

First the block needs to be sonic test for wall thickness,DON'T GO BY CORESHIFT AS ITS VERY MISLEADING WHEN YOU HAVE A SONIC TESTER.

I would look at the Dart SHP or SHP PRO block depending on cubic inch.

 

[bhays]

To build 600 horse or so I would use a better block then a OEM block with stock caps that was never built for what your going to do with it.

Understood. So if I were trying to stick to a budget and work with the block I have, what would be a realistic goal and what components would you recommend?

 

[CNC BLOCKS]

To build 600 horse or so I would use a better block then a OEM block with stock caps that was never built for what your going to do with it.

Understood. So if I were trying to stick to a budget and work with the block I have, what would be a realistic goal and what components would you recommend?

If your building a twin turbo it really shouldn't be a budget build, Stock caps I posted are not going to make it at 600 horse, Like I posted before that block needs some attention for ring seal and strength and at 600 your pushing the limits of a stock block IMHO.

Your going to need a good forged rotator why skimp on a block?

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

cnc is right, there's no such thing as a budget turbo build. Problem with a budget turbo build is they just don't last. I have a friend that does budget turbo builds - they last exactly one race season (1/4 mile) and they are junk at the end. He commented to me recently that if he built one motor with quality parts, he'd have saved money in the end...

Bolting turbos onto what you have now is budget - meaning, it should give you just enough time to get the money together to get good parts. With an LS motor, you can fudge a bit, but even that isn't a budget build.

With that said, I wouldn't worry about the cam, block, heads or rotating assemblies - you'll get 450 hp from them, those small by tiny valves just can't flow enough to make enough power. If you go for higher lift, then you need to buy better springs... and the snowball starts rolling.

 

[bhays]

I am just trying to learn and totally open to suggestion. I may be getting a little out of hand on the horsepower numbers. I am just trying to build a fast street car motor. I will most likely never run it down a strip. I want to stop short of impacting streetability. I want to be able to hop in this car and drive a couple of hours away sometime if I'm so inclined.

If I keep the block and heads, what is a reasonable goal to shoot for (500hp maybe) and what components should I use?

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

We've all been here.... reasonable numbers is 350-400 hp from a 350. Honestly, I'd save the turbos for later. It's good you're asking the question now rather then spending money and finding out like I do

The first question you need to ask is what you want the car to do - if you want to drive it any distance, you need to step back and ask if the car can handle the hp. Brakes, suspension, transmission, trailing arms, REAR END, REAR END (hmm, did I say that loud enough) need to be capable of the hp. Once you get those things dialed in, then decide on your motor. 350-400 hp isn't really an issue (except brakes, which are, well, 50 years old and been subject to a lot of improvements over the original design). 400 hp in front of worn TA bushings will give you a ride that defines "pucker factor"

If you want the motor to grow with you, sell what you have and get a 5.3 or even 4.8 LS motor. Both of those are almost boost ready (change valve springs) and cheap cheap - so when (not if) you blow it up, a replacement is as close as LKQ for $500.00.

however, if you're set on the motor you have - keep this in mind. I have a 450 (that means 400-500 hp motor) in my C3, it's barely streetable. It doesn't open the lights well, the booster for the power brakes is just added weight, and idling without loading up is just not something it does (and it has EFI....)

 

[68/70Vette]

Best of luck..keep us informed with progress on the engine.

Remember, for a boosted engine, you want a cam shaft that has less overlap than the normally aspirated cam shaft.

I have a stock LS3 engine in my 08. It's 6.2 liters (378 cubic inches). With an aftermarket centrifugal supercharger producing a max of about 8.5 psi, it has 579 rwhp at 6400 rpm. Assuming 15% transmission and differential losses, that's about 680 flywheel hp. The LS3 small blocks are fantastic engines...in the new C7 Corvettes, they're producing 450 hp and they get good fuel mileage also!

 

[68/70Vette]

The first question you need to ask is what you want the car to do - if you want to drive it any distance, you need to step back and ask if the car can handle the hp. Brakes, suspension, transmission, trailing arms, REAR END, REAR END (hmm, did I say that loud enough) need to be capable of the hp. .

however, if you're set on the motor you have - keep this in mind. I have a 450 (that means 400-500 hp motor) in my C3, it's barely streetable. It doesn't open the lights well, the booster for the power brakes is just added weight, and idling without loading up is just not something it does (and it has EFI....)

600 hp with a stock Corvette rear end and stock tranny is a problem. For the rear end, call Tom's Differential and order his maximum strength 10 bolt differential. You can get a 12 bolt diff from him that will handle up close to 1000 hp. The maximum strength 10 bolt will handle 600 hp easily. Cost, I forget exactly, but the maximum strength 10 set up, complete, is close to $3000 + another $1000 or so for assembly. A TKO600 five speed, which will handle 650 ft-lbs, will go for about $3500 in kit form.

As alluded to in the quoted post, vacuum brakes don't work well in a normally aspirated engine with a loppy camshaft. You can buy a Hydroboost power brake assembly that uses hydraulic pressure from the power steering pump. No worries about low engine vacuum. A Hydroboost kit goes for about $750. Actually you can drive a C3 (like my 68) without power brakes....takes some leg power however.

Going for extra hp in the 600 hp range really drives the price up for a resto-mod car. Before going the turbo route, maybe first go for a 450+ hp small block with a five speed tranny. You can use the stock rear end. This combo will give the relatively light weight (3400 lb ?) C3 an exhilarating performance. Don't know how much your car weighs. My air con BB 70 Coupe weighs in at about 3500 lbs. My 68 SM Vert weighed about 3050 lbs from the factory.

 

[bhays]

This is part of a complete frame off project. Lights have been converted to electric, so vacuum is not a big issue. The rear end has been beefed up previously and switched to 3:36.

I am pretty far invested in this engine because I have a really expensive fully chromed tpi setup and serpentine that I purchased back at the onset of this project.

I do need to stick with this block, pretty open otherwise.

I am looking at this rotating assembly on the recommendation of a friend..

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-12007040/overview/

Coupled with a roller cam, lifters, rockers.. would this be a good option. My heads say they can take a max valve size of 2.1/1.6. I'm assuming that means they can be milled to that size safely?

http://www.theengineshop.com/product_images/product_pdf-pdf_file-280.pdf

So if I had those done or got a different set, would that be a workable combination?

 

[CNC BLOCKS]

This is part of a complete frame off project. Lights have been converted to electric, so vacuum is not a big issue. The rear end has been beefed up previously and switched to 3:36.

I am pretty far invested in this engine because I have a really expensive fully chromed tpi setup and serpentine that I purchased back at the onset of this project.

I do need to stick with this block, pretty open otherwise.

I am looking at this rotating assembly on the recommendation of a friend..

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-12007040/overview/

Coupled with a roller cam, lifters, rockers.. would this be a good option. My heads say they can take a max valve size of 2.1/1.6. I'm assuming that means they can be milled to that size safely?

http://www.theengineshop.com/product_images/product_pdf-pdf_file-280.pdf

So if I had those done or got a different set, would that be a workable combination?

I guess your not listening, Have you sonic tested the block??????????

Was the block plate hone?????????????????????????

Was the block decked before it was bored ????????????????????

Was the block even line honed with new hardware????????????????

At 600 horse you shouldn't be using stock caps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That Eagle kit I believe those rods are not considered a stroker rod and having too use a reduced base circle cam is not the hot set up.

This sounds like a budget build that will probably cost a lot more money down the road.

I do this every day and have a good idea what it takes to build a DEPENDABLE 600 HORSE TURBO ENGINE

 

[MYBAD79]

That block you have there is from a freshly rebuilt engine? If so, a nice stroker rotating assembly with 3.75" stroke shiuld give you what? 385ci ?? That and a roller cam and you're good to go, with decent (not necesserily $2000) heads it will be a reliable engine ... That said, even if you buy a cast crank the rotating assembly is $1000, cam and lifters, gaskets, head bolts, pushrods etc .... You'll be close to $2000 and a good LS1 donor is not a lot more .... For a turbo build I'd use only top notch parts ...

 

[bhays]

That block you have there is from a freshly rebuilt engine? If so, a nice stroker rotating assembly with 3.75" stroke shiuld give you what? 385ci ?? That and a roller cam and you're good to go, with decent (not necesserily $2000) heads it will be a reliable engine ... That said, even if you buy a cast crank the rotating assembly is $1000, cam and lifters, gaskets, head bolts, pushrods etc .... You'll be close to $2000 and a good LS1 donor is not a lot more .... For a turbo build I'd use only top notch parts ...

Thank you. Yes, it;s so freshly rebuilt that it was never fired, lol.

 

[MYBAD79]

Thank you. Yes, it;s so freshly rebuilt that it was never fired, lol.

Ok, so let's assume Jasper did as they advertise and the block was crack tested, decked, plate honed etc..... Not a bad starting point but I would ditch the twin turbo idea.....

Your heads are 76cc, I did not see if they mentioned alu or iron but at 8.7:1advertised CR I assume they're cast iron.....

The cam does not have much lift and it's not a roller cam, I'd replace that with something better but then again you are limited by the heads and the low CR.

Your best option is probably to simply leave this engine alone, it really isn't all that bad but IMO it cost too much money to work with this compared to other options out there. It would be different if you only had this block but since it was a fresh engine it is a lot of wasted money...

If you build from this block, you'll need: more CR - you say you want a forged rotating assy so that's around $1400 , then the roller cam conversion is around $600 or so, that alone is $2000 and you still have 76cc heads that may or may not work with the CR that you want

 

[GTR1999]

600 hp with a stock Corvette rear end and stock tranny is a problem. For the rear end, call Tom's Differential and order his maximum strength 10 bolt differential. You can get a 12 bolt diff from him that will handle up close to 1000 hp. The maximum strength 10 bolt will handle 600 hp easily. Cost, I forget exactly, but the maximum strength 10 set up, complete, is close to $3000 + another $1000 or so for assembly. A TKO600 five speed, which will handle 650 ft-lbs, will go for about $3500 in kit form.

.

Tom no longer builds diff's but he will polish and tune a Eaton posi to sell you. He is no longer building complete vette diff's. He refers them to a select few custom builders, one of which is myself.

Now depending on the application the diff in 10 bolt form, non stock- custom built, may live to 500- 550hp. This however is very subjective. It all depends on power, transmission, traction, and Driving style.

I have seen plenty of stock vettes diff hold up to some abuse but typically the posi case is going to let go if hammered hard at launch and manual shifting. Add in sticky tires and you may loose the 17 spline outer axles and the posi case. 300hp cars have trashed stock diff's.

My son is very good at breaking vettes, his last outing at the track was hooking up into near high 10's until he sheared off inner/outer solid spicers at the line.

So if the diff was rebuild the question is how and what parts were used.

If you are looking at the strongest 10 bolt vette IRS then yes they are in the $3000 range but that is a ready to bolt in deal. If you were referring to paying someone to install the diff then it's anyone's guess on labor depending on the mechanic and level of experience.

The term I coined a few years ago for this type of build was "super 10 bolt" because I use some 12 bolt parts but the case is still a 10 bolt machined for the larger cross shaft and fit with Heat treated 10-17 x30 spiders which will be getting harder to find again. These also are fit with steel cap and solid sleeve, billet pinion yoke and ARP bolts. Some I have had cryo treated as well.


However, if I had 550-650hp I would not use one of these but step up to Toms 12 bolt with 1350 axles. Again Tom no longer assembles these but will sell you his kit so you can build them if you are so inclined. How to do it is another story all together. I use a fully stocked toolroom to build them. Most of the guys I walked through this type of job also had access to mills, lathes, and a surface grinder.

Over 650hp I would use the 1480 axle kit. With the 1350 12 bolt build I would use Tom's 31 spline outers and 3.5 shafts. You have to use those with the 1480 kit.

Buying a built 12 bolt fully assembled with assembled trailing arms is not cheap by any means but getting the best at anything hardly is. So good luck with your build and enjoy it when you are done.

PS- One of the guys at the track pushed a TKO through about 150 passes and the case cracked on it. I believe but could be wrong the car was in the 500hp range. Liberty Gear would be the place to call to discuss building one.

 

[84rzv500r]

Big Picture for a moment...

as is the motor is what 300HP?

best case if there are no other constraints..

7 PSI gets you what 150 more prolly doable with your setup (based on my experience with boosted stock GM motors) without intercooling and prolly in the limits of things like exhaust valve material and head gaskets cooling system and existing tolerances.

14 PSI gets you 300 more with intercooling as heat will be your enemy here... exhaust valves.. ugh radiator/cooling system...

HP is BMEP x RPM.. I wouldn't spin that motor beyond 5500 at that component level and 7 PSI

your gonna need fuel delivery commiserate with that HP and a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator, and you will need to pull the timing back with boost and RPM

not saying you cant get there with what you have I think you should just think about the the use of the words "On A Budget"...

Rather than twin turbo (NO PUN LOL) I would think about a supercharger setup for a stock TPI Motor... might let you leave the fresh motor you have intact and in the 450 HP range fairly inexpensivly,,, and stay within the bounds of the rest of the cars driveline...

Just my opinion

 

[68/70Vette]

Now depending on the application the diff in 10 bolt form, non stock- custom built, may live to 500- 550hp. This however is very subjective. It all depends on power, transmission, traction, and Driving style.


The term I coined a few years ago for this type of build was "super 10 bolt" because I use some 12 bolt parts but the case is still a 10 bolt machined for the larger cross shaft and fit with Heat treated 10-17 x30 spiders which will be getting harder to find again.

Over 650hp I would use the 1480 axle kit. With the 1350 12 bolt build I would use Tom's 31 spline outers and 3.5 shafts. You have to use those with the 1480 kit.

Buying a built 12 bolt fully assembled with assembled trailing arms is not cheap by any means but getting the best at anything hardly is. So good luck with your build and enjoy it when you are done.

I started out with what I like to refer to as a Super 10 bolt. (Didn't know you originated the phrase.) Unfortunately, the reason was that I had already bought a Richmond 5 speed and the Richmond 5 speed's 1:1 5th gear meant I had to use a 3.08:1 for reasonable freeway cruise rpms. ...Now unhappiness...I discovered the Richmond 5 speeds were only rated for 450 ft-lbs!!!!!!I previously had Dough Nash 5 speed, but when Nash went bankrupt and Richmond bought out the tranny, they derated it to make it cheaper to manufacture. I think the Nash's were pretty tough trannies, but when Richmond bought the design and sold it under their own name, they derated the tranny.. Back to the original story....now finding out pretty late that my hypothetical 600 hp BB would shatter my Richmond, I quickly put in a stop order for my "Super 10 bolt" with a 3.08:1" build. I ordered the diff built with a 3.73 and also ordered a TKO600 five speed. It's all now installed in my rolling frame. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have gone the 12 bolt conversion....however, my 10 bolt tuned carrier, the higher spline axles, pinion input, and larger axles, I think I'll be safe from rear end breakdowns.

McLoed twin disk clutch and 285/40/18 rear wheel tires.

McCloed

 

[bhays]

I appreciate all input. I know there are easier ways to get there, or at least I'm learning that, but I really want to see what I can do with this engine. It's torn down now, so I'm going to have to spend some money to rebuild it anyway. I agree that maybe 450hp is a more realistic goal, and I am content with that. I'm just building a fun car, not a race setup at all.

I do have a buddy who is wanting to build a basic 300-350hp sbc for his mini truck build and he is going to buy my cast components, cam, etc. for his block.

 

[GTR1999]

Now depending on the application the diff in 10 bolt form, non stock- custom built, may live to 500- 550hp. This however is very subjective. It all depends on power, transmission, traction, and Driving style.


The term I coined a few years ago for this type of build was "super 10 bolt" because I use some 12 bolt parts but the case is still a 10 bolt machined for the larger cross shaft and fit with Heat treated 10-17 x30 spiders which will be getting harder to find again.

Over 650hp I would use the 1480 axle kit. With the 1350 12 bolt build I would use Tom's 31 spline outers and 3.5 shafts. You have to use those with the 1480 kit.

Buying a built 12 bolt fully assembled with assembled trailing arms is not cheap by any means but getting the best at anything hardly is. So good luck with your build and enjoy it when you are done.

I started out with what I like to refer to as a Super 10 bolt. (Didn't know you originated the phrase.) Unfortunately, the reason was that I had already bought a Richmond 5 speed and the Richmond 5 speed's 1:1 5th gear meant I had to use a 3.08:1 for reasonable freeway cruise rpms. ...Now unhappiness...I discovered the Richmond 5 speeds were only rated for 450 ft-lbs!!!!!!I previously had Dough Nash 5 speed, but when Nash went bankrupt and Richmond bought out the tranny, they derated it to make it cheaper to manufacture. I think the Nash's were pretty tough trannies, but when Richmond bought the design and sold it under their own name, they derated the tranny.. Back to the original story....now finding out pretty late that my hypothetical 600 hp BB would shatter my Richmond, I quickly put in a stop order for my "Super 10 bolt" with a 3.08:1" build. I ordered the diff built with a 3.73 and also ordered a TKO600 five speed. It's all now installed in my rolling frame. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have gone the 12 bolt conversion....however, my 10 bolt tuned carrier, the higher spline axles, pinion input, and larger axles, I think I'll be safe from rear end breakdowns.

McLoed twin disk clutch and 285/40/18 rear wheel tires.

McCloed

Sorry to pull this away from the OP question, I will end with this post so as not to distract any further.

Yes I started using the term super 10 and other have since gone by it, not a big deal.

As long as you are not shock loading the diff you most likely will be ok. If you have one of Tom's built posi's with his 30 spline setup it will live longer then a vendor built stock posi.

One thing I would keep an eye on, since this is a street car that I assume you will drive and put some miles on, is the amount of end play in the axles. Straight track cars will not put a lot of miles on a diff but street strip cars will. As I have mentioned for a long time I have the axle faces hardened and tempered for street use. I never had a problem doing this and check our own axles during pm's with no wear showing. Again this is something I started doing and others followed - although Tom does not do this. Some have decided against it as well when they built their own diff and that is their choice so just be aware.

 

[MYBAD79]

I appreciate all input. I know there are easier ways to get there, or at least I'm learning that, but I really want to see what I can do with this engine. It's torn down now, so I'm going to have to spend some money to rebuild it anyway. I agree that maybe 450hp is a more realistic goal, and I am content with that. I'm just building a fun car, not a race setup at all.

I do have a buddy who is wanting to build a basic 300-350hp sbc for his mini truck build and he is going to buy my cast components, cam, etc. for his block.

So you could just re-assemble this engine for your buddy and start over with his block .... I guess this was something to consider before you took this engine apart .... Well....
Measure your deck height first, then see how many forged stroker pistons are available in a .040" oversize.
Now that you say you really want to build from this block, I'd go with the 396ci stroker kit just for the cool factor ... I wish I did that when I installed my 383 instead ....
Are your heads iron or alu ??