clutchdust
Millionaire Playboy
Eat your wheaties, but you should be able to tote a bare block by your self. Getting it up is the only problem.
Choices,choices machine work more expensive then expected
- Thread starter Imo Apita
- Start date
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Viagra......:nuts::harhar:
Imo Apita
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I was asked to do a Commercial not too long ago:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-cpojkILO0[/ame]
No kidding, this is like the funniest Commercial of the year.
Every time it has me in stitches.
CNC BLOCKS
Well-known member
I have been building engines for many years and to use a 2 bolt for a 383 is not rreally the hot set up as its still a grey cast iron cap and it will still flex even if you have 15 stud girdles.
That being said an engine with a 3.480 crank and 400 horse is about max for 2 bolt block!! Now you add a 3.750 stroke and 400 horse and its a different animal with the added stroke it will side load the caps more and will cause the caps to move seen it to many times.
Why do you think when GM built the 2 bolt 400 blocks they used wider mainS?? Maybe for better surpport.
Also no matter what bore your using have it sonic tested to make sure you have a good peice before you start, We have alot of standard bore blocks that would not be safe at .030 over on a performance build, Don't go by core shift as we have proved that to be a myth!!!
CNC BLOCKS
Well-known member
We have machine shops in my area the don't line hone, don't square and deck there blocks, don't beleive in plate honing and and can beat my price by half, But I have done leak down tests on the engines once they have been run and with up to 40% leak down on a newly built engine is quite alot because the did not torque plate hone and did not use a good hone either.
I always tell you got exactly what you paid for nothing more.
At our shop we
Sonic test
Clean and Mag
Line hone
square and deck to zero
Bore and plate hone use the same gaskets and hardware to be used in the end build.
Light hone on the lifter bores
Stroke clearance
Drill water holes in the decks on certain GM blocks mostly the earlier ones.
We charge 595.00
Imo Apita
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Required a dead lift from the ground up and into my wife's Grand Cherokee. Good thing I have a weight lifter's belt. Would have been hilarious driving around in the 'vette with a bare block in the passengers seat.
Went to the shop yesterday, block was almost done.
Getting ready for the final hone
"Virgin" block, no more numbers:
- Align bore & hone the mains
- 030 overbore & hone
- Twice in the hot tank
- Square and decked (0.005 of the top)
- Stroker clearance
- All freeze plugs and galley plugs
- Cam bearings
- Paint
I don't think that's a bad deal considering I was quoted $750 for half the work.
Plan on ordering the rotating assembly this week, see if I have any money left to get the heads also. But still haven't figured the final cam choice, but it will be solid roller...
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clutchdust
Millionaire Playboy
Hey! Bare pad. You could stamp it however you wanted 
I think it will do just fine. I've heard a lot of people get real sketchy about 2 bolt blocks, but a few people I trust say a 2 bolt block is good for just about anything you can do short of super/turbocharging.
I think it will do just fine. I've heard a lot of people get real sketchy about 2 bolt blocks, but a few people I trust say a 2 bolt block is good for just about anything you can do short of super/turbocharging.
SmokinBBC
Well-known member
Sounds like a decent price. CNC price is lower than what I paid.
I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who can get you the proper stamps:nuts:
I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who can get you the proper stamps:nuts:
CNC BLOCKS
Well-known member
Required a dead lift from the ground up and into my wife's Grand Cherokee. Good thing I have a weight lifter's belt. Would have been hilarious driving around in the 'vette with a bare block in the passengers seat.
Went to the shop yesterday, block was almost done.
Getting ready for the final hone
"Virgin" block, no more numbers:
for $700.
- Align bore & hone the mains
- 030 overbore & hone
- Twice in the hot tank
- Square and decked (0.005 of the top)
- Stroker clearance
- All freeze plugs and galley plugs
- Cam bearings
- Paint
I don't think that's a bad deal considering I was quoted $750 for half the work.
Plan on ordering the rotating assembly this week, see if I have any money left to get the heads also. But still haven't figured the final cam choice, but it will be solid roller...
Why did the charge you for a line bore and a line hone as it makes no sence unless the caps were changed!! And what cam bearings did they install P/N
We also can deck a block with out taking the numbers off the stamp pad!!
Also the main caps should be torqued up when honing the cylinders!!!
On a performance build you should not be honing with a cheap hone like that as those hone heads have stone shoe stone shoe every 90 degrees and when the stone comes up agaist a tight spot in the cylinder it pushes the other stone 180 degerees across from it out in the cylinder!!! And using a 2 point measuring stick you can't measure a round cylinder!!!
Our Sunnen cylinder hone has one stone at a 10 degree angle which will take an out of round cylinder and make it round thats how it works.
Also on the cheap hones they are air assist and you not going to get a consistant cross hatch from cylinder to cylinder.
Also you should be using the same lenth hardware that is going to be used in the end build and I doubt your using those same lenth bolts in your build if so what heads are you using.??????????????
Here isa good link to look over
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/84732/how_piston_rings_affect_horsepower.aspx
If you want a good hone job for a performance build you should use a good hone period!! There is a reason my hone cost more then the servo quip hone in the pic.
Here is a link on honing.
http://www.dartheadstv.com/video/13335
Here is a block we are honing with the correct hone and correct hardware and gasket!!!
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clutchdust
Millionaire Playboy
Hey CNC, if I read your post right, you're telling him that his machine work is shit and his engine is going to explode the first time he puts the hammer down. Is that about it? 'Cause that's what it sounds like you're saying.
CNC BLOCKS
Well-known member
If I actually said that could you please copy and paste it as I can't seem to find that.
You sound like one of those guys that thinks a hone is a hone. Interesting!!!
If you think that the hone will do the same job as mine thats fine.
And if you think that using that hardware instead of the hardware to be used in the end build is correct thats fine as well.
And if you don't think the main caps should be torqued when plate honing a block you have not been around engines much.
I have been over hone jobs done with cheap hones there is a differance I can tell you that!!
Rather then argue with me just call Sunnen and talk to the hone department I am sure they will clue you in on what it takes to hone a block correctly and what machine is needed.
Look around some of the top engine builders shops and some of the cup shops you won't see them guys using a 5000.00 hone LOL
clutchdust
Millionaire Playboy
1) You are making some serious assumptions about what I think/know
2) You should go back and reread some of your posts as if you were the OP and someone was saying to you what you're saying to him.
I am not in any way contradicting what you say. So far as I know it's absolutely correct. I'm no machinist, but I've built an engine or two. My point is that if the OP is anything like me, he may be on a budget. Otherwise, I'm sure he would have simply started with a fresh Dart or Donovan block. He also may be looking for the best bang for his buck. There is with out question some machine work which absolutely has to be done correctly regardless of if the engine is a "going down the road" motor or a pro stocker. There are some things that may not be quite as necessary for an engine that will, for instance, only see 6k rarely, or the builder has no need/desire to make 400+ hp.
I trust you are exceptionally knowledgeable in what you do, far more than me. And you sound like the kind that insists on doing everything the *right* way. For some of us, especially those of us on a budget, there may be more than one right way.
I think your very knowledgeble opinion could simply be stated in a way that doesn't make the reader feel as though it's your way or you're just pissing away money.
Food for thought.
2) You should go back and reread some of your posts as if you were the OP and someone was saying to you what you're saying to him.
I am not in any way contradicting what you say. So far as I know it's absolutely correct. I'm no machinist, but I've built an engine or two. My point is that if the OP is anything like me, he may be on a budget. Otherwise, I'm sure he would have simply started with a fresh Dart or Donovan block. He also may be looking for the best bang for his buck. There is with out question some machine work which absolutely has to be done correctly regardless of if the engine is a "going down the road" motor or a pro stocker. There are some things that may not be quite as necessary for an engine that will, for instance, only see 6k rarely, or the builder has no need/desire to make 400+ hp.
I trust you are exceptionally knowledgeable in what you do, far more than me. And you sound like the kind that insists on doing everything the *right* way. For some of us, especially those of us on a budget, there may be more than one right way.
I think your very knowledgeble opinion could simply be stated in a way that doesn't make the reader feel as though it's your way or you're just pissing away money.
Food for thought.
Imo Apita
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UH..some assumptions being made here.
For starters how do you know the main caps were not torqued during the hone?
I took the picture right after he installed the torque plate with a gasket.
Forgot to ask him if he honed the block hot, I'm sure that would have made a difference too.
According to an article in Engine builder :
11/1/1996
Performance Small Block: Chevy Engines
By Dave Emanuel
Well, first of all, we are not the ones arguing and no doubt Sunnen will tell you that you need a Sunnen.
The guy's been an accomplished swamp buggy and drag racer for the last 20 years, building his own engines. Other than that I know nothing of his work. For all I know he may have just posed for the pictures, aged them with tea and hung 'em in his shop.
He might turn around and hone it with #80 sandpaper and a brick for all I know, but I doubt it.
In the mean time the assumptions and critique are getting a little "abrasive". You are obviously very knowledgeable but there is really no need to put an exclamation mark at the end of every sentence.
For starters how do you know the main caps were not torqued during the hone?
I took the picture right after he installed the torque plate with a gasket.
Forgot to ask him if he honed the block hot, I'm sure that would have made a difference too.
Well the man says he shaved 0.005 of the caps and then align bored and honed.
According to an article in Engine builder :
11/1/1996
Performance Small Block: Chevy Engines
By Dave Emanuel
Well, first of all, we are not the ones arguing and no doubt Sunnen will tell you that you need a Sunnen.
The guy's been an accomplished swamp buggy and drag racer for the last 20 years, building his own engines. Other than that I know nothing of his work. For all I know he may have just posed for the pictures, aged them with tea and hung 'em in his shop.
He might turn around and hone it with #80 sandpaper and a brick for all I know, but I doubt it.
In the mean time the assumptions and critique are getting a little "abrasive". You are obviously very knowledgeable but there is really no need to put an exclamation mark at the end of every sentence.
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CNC BLOCKS
Well-known member
Another guy who thinks a hone is a hone!!! Big differance between the Sunnen hone and a Servo quip hone and if I thought for a minute it was better then a Sunnen I would buy one in a minute and it would have saved me about 30,00.00 as well. Right now I get a lot of work having good equipment and Sunnen has been around for alot more years and sunnen machines are in a lot of your top shops out there!!
Why would anyone cut caps .005 it sounds like some one messed up or maybe they didn't line bore the block period but only lne honed it!!
The only time we have had to line bore a block is because we changed the caps. Other then that we just line hone and most of the time we cut the caps appox. .003
You should be able to see them!!So they torque the main caps on after it in the hone???HMMMMMM
LOL
CNC BLOCKS
Well-known member
It does not cost any more to do it the right way, Using a torque plate is a great idea if done correctly but again I will say that any that torque plate hones should use the correct hardware and gaskets ETC when honing thats just common sense.
There is a lot more to honing then most people think and yes its probably a budget shop and they make do with what they got.
The old saying ( it cost money to go to school)
Here is a seminar Richard Maskins owner of Dart did on honing there is some good info in this link, Also they use Sunnen honing machine at there shop.
http://www.dartheadstv.com/video/13335
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Arthur Brown
Well-known member
Oh boy, all these millions of blocks that were not honed using Sunnen equipment are going to explode LOL
Imo Apita
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Look Carl, you're in Maine, I'm in Florida.
You charge $595, he charges $850, made me a deal for $700.
You use Sunnen, He doesn't.
You shave 0.003 (approximately), he shaves 0.005 of the main caps. BTW he told me that before he did anything. Shave 0.005, line bore and hone.
I really don't see a problem here.
What's next, that I should be using Craftsman instead of Snapon tools during assembly?
You charge $595, he charges $850, made me a deal for $700.
You use Sunnen, He doesn't.
You shave 0.003 (approximately), he shaves 0.005 of the main caps. BTW he told me that before he did anything. Shave 0.005, line bore and hone.
I really don't see a problem here.
What's next, that I should be using Craftsman instead of Snapon tools during assembly?
CNC BLOCKS
Well-known member
He should be doing for nothing after hacking the numbers of the stamp pad and we use a lot of Snap On tools they seem to be top of the line and meet my standards.
WOW 850 for that work and using that equipment I guess I have to bring my prices up:rofl:
What did they use to deck your block with?????????????
Never built swap buggy engines but have been in this bus. for over 35 years now we have built alot of top circle track engines in the northeast and we ship from coast to coast and all over the world if that makes any differance!!!!!!!
Here a little bit of what we do at our shops!!!!!
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93124
CNC BLOCKS
Well-known member
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Imo Apita
Well-known member
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