Water based paint training

Just wanted to share with you guys the fact that I am presently on Fort Worth TX attending training for water based car paint.

This stuff is amazing and requires a totally different approach to spraying paint. Most amazing is the first coat is thin but wet, the second is thinner yet and the last one is like a light dusting.

Wed.we shoot some clear and start over. Man I love my new job! I will report in later Wed.

I'm still sceptical of water bourne products, if it doesn't stink it doesn't work :harhar: But thats just another example of me being a dinosaur. I have a car in a body shop right now. While I was selecting a body shop my criteria was that I wanted a body shop that still used stinky paint. Couldn't find one around here. I'm told by Jan 2010 the law says it has to be all water bourne.

00fxd said:

I'm still sceptical of water bourne products, if it doesn't stink it doesn't work :harhar: But thats just another example of me being a dinosaur. I have a car in a body shop right now. While I was selecting a body shop my criteria was that I wanted a body shop that still used stinky paint. Couldn't find one around here. I'm told by Jan 2010 the law says it has to be all water bourne.

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Figgers, guess I have to ask that at the DuPont dealer when buying color paint....

still think a one step urethane is the way to go for me....too damn many clear coated cars with sunlight damage....

ever color range I"m attracted to, Linda don't like....I was thinking of a burnt orange/copper color....or that bright emerald green, but I know the body work going to stink, so maybe flat black....gotta get the primer on it, maybe sometime soon...think most of the sanding is over with now...

:gurney:

There has been no definate date set, but we all know it is coming. This is nothing new . It has been in Europe for years.

At our store, we are choosing to embrace it rather than fight it. Hopefully we get a leg up on our competition. Another jobber in our area put in ppg water at the biggest shop in town only to have it thrown out 5 days later because they didn't now what they were doing. The product wouldn't dry due to a lack of air movement. It will require an update in equipment.

Well, at least I got lucky on the timing....doing it NOW, as opposed to waiting for them to develop this water paint enough to last longer than 3 years on a CAR in sunlight....

I stuck the IR heat sensor on Linda's '99 Escort in the sunlight last summer, about 95f that day in the shade.....it's a light silver/green color rather popular, anyway.....take a royal stab at what that temp was??

try 165F.....I about shit, stuck my palm on it, and sure enough...hotter'n HELL....I believe the gun.....

now can any water paints last under that abuse and still look GOOD after ten years of that crap???

judging from the BS we all witness with CLEAR COATS, I doubt it....

even today, clears peel like a banana....:harhar:

Keep us posted "rabiddawg" I'm curious to hear what you learned.
I just attended an I-CAR class last week on waterborne paints.
It cleared up a lot of misconceptions I had heard through the rumor
mills. Here are just a few things mentioned at the class I attended
that may be of interest here.

*Waterborne Clears CAN NOT be purchased in the U.S. at this time...only base coats.
*Most of your higher end clears that are being used now can be used over waterborne.
*You CAN NOT use tap water or even distilled water in waterborne products. It
has to "Ionized" water that still contains at least 10% solvent.
Your paint guns need to have all stainless steel parts or they will be susceptible to corrosion.
*You do not have to have a super fancy mega buck paint booth.
Just a couple or more of the "airguns" to create a turbulent air flow for drying
and an air compressor that can handle the required CFM to run them.

From what I gathered the do-it-yourselfer can use this product at home just
like before, but will require a little re-education.

"rabiddawg" if what you were told differs from anything I just said let me know.

Mrvette, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.

Todays base/clear is no more likely to fail than a single stage, if both systems are applied right.

The problems with oe peelers had more to do with an over baked ecoat than a product problem.

I have a 99 ford that has zero paint problems, so to say that base/clear systems are inferior is simply an opinion not fact.

Water based paint has been around for over a decade!

Today we finished our second complete. This went over the existing finish vs sealer. We intentionally cut thru several places so we could see how well the wb paint covers. One place was so deep it was a flat spot on a curved panel. Not did the paint cover but it showed NO sign of lifting. We all felt solvent based paint would have lifted big time.

Thursday we do spot repairs and blends. From what I have been told this is where wb is supposed to shine. It certainly has proven to be forgiving.

Smyda, eveything you say is what we are being told. There are wb clears they just are not ready yet. Activators have what is called cosolvent in them not just water so tap water is a no no. I would only use a clear approved for wb and I would pick a system and not mix brands. Just like solvent base.

rabiddawg said:

Mrvette, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.

Todays base/clear is no more likely to fail than a single stage, if both systems are applied right.

The problems with oe peelers had more to do with an over baked ecoat than a product problem.

I have a 99 ford that has zero paint problems, so to say that base/clear systems are inferior is simply an opinion not fact.

Water based paint has been around for over a decade!

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Sorry, did not mean to imply there was any problem with her paint, there is NOT....so far...but the temp of that surface on that trunk...165F was a shocker...

BUT I seriously doubt that any water paint is likely to survive even that long, given the troubles with paints over the decades,....

THAT is all.....

not that I live long enough to care anymore, just upholding a standard...IE should last 20 years in FLORIDA or AZ sun without damage....

:shocking: tough standard, I know....but it's only BEEN 100 years of painting cars...SO better living through Chemistry....

So if i wanted to use WB paint,i would have to replace all the equipment i just purchased??? or can my current gun's be modified to apply it?

And i was just getting this base/clear coat stuff down and figured out.

Your guns should be fine. Just make sure you clean them so they don't rust. The biggest difference I see is air movement and application.

How well would WB paint spray using standard HVLP equipment with a 1.4 mm tip at the gun? If everything stays the same with the exception of rust prevention maintainence, it ain't so bad. Is there more air movement necessary during the painting process to dry the water? Interesting, thanks for sharing your knowledge!

As for guns, most 1.3-1.4 caps will probably be ok. If you use the gun daily I would look into one made for water because if they are not properly cleaned when put away they will rust.

Airflow over the surface, after it has been sprayed, is the key to gettting the paint to dry. In the booth on days one and two we had 16-17% relative humidity and 70-90 degree temp; it dried fine. On day three we had 45% and 70 degrees; turning on the overhead fans in the booth flashed the paint faster than solvent based paint would have flashed without the fans.

Just thought I would add this as some info of interest.
The class I attended was basically a "For-Your-Information" type of thing
where as what "rabiddawg" is getting is Hands-On.

This is a check list of things a production shop would need to consider when
making the change to Waterborne Products. Which some have already been
mentioned earlier.

*Dedicated spray guns equipped with corrosion-resistant parts (1.2 - 1.5mm
air cap with coated passages and stainless steel needles).

*Clean compressed air with volume necessary for larger air volume required.
(Screw type compressor preferred).

*Clean, non-corrosive air lines (copper preferred / NO PVC).

*Compressed air filters to remove moisture, oil, and oil vapors from the spray
gun line capable of 6% - 12% humidity (2 stage minimum / 3 stage best).

*Tack cloths that do not leave wipe marks.

*Non-cellulose based wipes or cleaners.

*Spray gun washer dedicated to waterborne with compatible cleaning solvent.

*Flocculating powder to extend cleaning solvent life.

*Coated or treated masking supplies that hold up to water.

*Paint booth equipped for turbulent air flow in the form of:
__Hand held air multipliers / singles or mounted on stands
__Ceiling fans
__Corner air venturi fans

*Heated spray booth with exhaust of 120-140fpm while spraying and 200-
400fpm while flashing of solvents with turbulent air. (Optimal humidity 30% -
60% while spraying).

*Non-corrosive mixing containers and cups.

*Paint strainers 125 - 200 microns, (double straining may be required).

*Non-corrosive waste paint drums (plastic or plastic lined).

*Paint storage area with optimal temperature of 68 degrees
(Not to freeze or exceed 102 degrees).

*Metal or plastic mixing sticks - NO WOOD!

*Retrofitting existing spray booth will require cleaning of corners, light fixtures,
and air hoses due to amount of air movements required by waterborne
product applications.

*Internal booth thermometer and a relative humidity gauge.

*Air line check for humidity of 6% - 12% and dirt and debris.

NOTE: This list is not all inclusive and may vary paint maker to paint maker.

It looks like the HV compressor puts me out of the game, but there is so much more I'm lacking. All I can hope for is the old materials will be available another couple years and i can finish what I want.

It appears the government wants to put an end to any amateur auto body painting being done.

Red said:

It looks like the HV compressor puts me out of the game, but there is so much more I'm lacking. All I can hope for is the old materials will be available another couple years and i can finish what I want.

It appears the government wants to put an end to any amateur auto body painting being done.

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I think it's MOST OBVIOUS that the .gov wants to eliminate the automobile for all but the most elite, as a form of control over the populace.....

it fits the fascist/commie mind set....they want CONTROL, and the car is a symbol of freedom, can't be allowed...SO, invent all sorts of reasons that cars are BAD, and sell it to the sheeple......

and of course the most obvious is to make cars unavailable, or unaffordable, and to obviously limit as much as possible, ALL sorts of home repairs, through inspections, testing, parts/supplies limitations...all of them,.....

You might be right about government control Gene, but before I spend $10K on a paint job, I'll roll on some Rustoleum. At the track I'm seeing more and more flat black race cars that look fine to me. The paint don't do squat for performance. Come to think of it, there is a body shop supply store near me that will give me the scoop. Maybe, I will stop in next week and ask how long I have before only water based paints are available. Maybe we need to hold a 'Paint Party' rally to protest government control over paint availability? Nah....I ain't happy about government control and screw-ups on just about everything!

I don't believe that the move to waterborne is about gov. "control" as much as
it is about trying to clean up the air. And the NON-waterborne products are not
going to disappear any time soon. Your basecoats and primers put more crap in
the air than the clearcoats. This is why they started with them first.

Remember back in the days of Lacquer paints jobs. You could buy a gallon of
color and after spraying you would be lucky if 50% of it actually made it to the
car, the rest was lost in the air.

The list I posted above is for a "Production Shop" NOT a do-it-yourselfer.
So "everything" on the list would not apply to you. You could get by with
one Hand held air multiplier and a decent air compressor. Remember your
not doing production work.....your just fixing up the toy.

So lets not get too freaked out over waterborne, there's still some things to
be learned but it isn't going to be "THAT" much different. When Acrylic Enamel
came out folks freaked out then it became the norm....then BC/CC was introduced
and folks freaked out again, now it's the norm....today it is waterborne....
lets not repeat history.......lets show them that Old Dogs can learn new Tricks...:lol:

IN the DIM< past I was using my old style lo bucket Binks knockoff....at some ~90 psi, and yes 1/2 or less on the car, huge mess all over the joint....

BUT this time around 40 psi off my friend's top loader with DuPont Nason primer, and it hardly did anything but land on the car....as aimed....hard to believe.....almost NO OVERSPRAY....stunk like hell, wore a open air filtered respirator...but the garage door was wide open with a PERFECT breeze blowing through that carried most of the fumes away...hardly smelled a thing....

as for the paint, I'm encouraged, but not totally elated....

needs finish sanding due to dust of course....but not so awful evil...my body work is among the better areas of the car....overdone compared to some other spots....so review is under way...and decisions on down the road....

need a chilly morning tmrw, to take that thing over some rough bumps in the roads here....at speed....bang/rip HELL outta that dawg....see what/where/who splits.....

then make a decision over to try fixing or live with it....

something I been wanting to do since I had the car....fix that annoying divot in the driver's door where it hits the upper hinge.....grind the hinge a tad...
then to get the door to line up with even gap....sanders...done....

sometime in the next weeks to block sand and wash with water again....

another few trips over nasty speed bumps at 60+ mph....then to see what is is....

:waxer::goodnight::yahoo:

SMYDA said:

I don't believe that the move to waterborne is about gov. "control" as much as
it is about trying to clean up the air. And the NON-waterborne products are not
going to disappear any time soon. Your basecoats and primers put more crap in
the air than the clearcoats. This is why they started with them first.

Remember back in the days of Lacquer paints jobs. You could buy a gallon of
color and after spraying you would be lucky if 50% of it actually made it to the
car, the rest was lost in the air.

The list I posted above is for a "Production Shop" NOT a do-it-yourselfer.
So "everything" on the list would not apply to you. You could get by with
one Hand held air multiplier and a decent air compressor. Remember your
not doing production work.....your just fixing up the toy.

So lets not get too freaked out over waterborne, there's still some things to
be learned but it isn't going to be "THAT" much different. When Acrylic Enamel
came out folks freaked out then it became the norm....then BC/CC was introduced
and folks freaked out again, now it's the norm....today it is waterborne....
lets not repeat history.......lets show them that Old Dogs can learn new Tricks...:lol:

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I agree,it's just life,things change all the time,it's called progress,either keep up or join the Amish community.