Sloppy steering ... need help.....

MYBAD79

Moderator
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
6,939
Location
sunny Florida
I noticed excessive play in my steering wheel when the engine (and PS pump) is off... about 1" left/right....:skeptic:

When the engine (and pump) is running it feels a little better but still sloppy.... now I am considering doing the rack and pinion conversion that I planned for fall/winter ....

Anyway.... I had my wife turn the steering wheel left/right with the engine/pump off while I stuck my head under the hood, expected to see play in the rag but ... I saw the entire steering box moving :amazed::skeptic: WTF ????

Am I about to rip the steering box off the frame or what ??? I guess the car goes back on jacks soon.... :cussing::cussing:

I'll see if I can post a video....
 
I had never considered frame flex to be an issue, but the tortional mechanics twisting it I think would be the same no matter they type of steering system....

so when doing my own custom rack install using the Grand Am rack , CTO, and just two input universals...and fabbing my own mounting bracket, I tested on the ground in the garage here, obviously....there was one hell of a lot of frame flex with just the vertical leg holding the rack....as in that rack moved side to side about an inch or more.....HUGE amount...so I put a diagonal strut from the very bottom of the rack mounting bracket, to the outer/forward bolt of the old power steering ram mount....this triangulated that frame a good bit and since it was toward the rear a bit, also spread the loading around a bit....that cured it a goodly amount.....

some years later I added the VBP cross strut from tower to tower, and that stiffened up the whole damn thing pretty good....it flys good a true now...very responsive...

my only comment is that it's a HUGE improvement over the old stock system, and I know MY stock setup was good as it was going to get....not a loose part in there, and the turns on the wheel now are some 2.7 turns r/l much tighter, like a modern car should be....none of the school bus feel to the steering....
 
Gene, I assume (and hope) that the Flaming River style cradle takes all the flex out. The flimsy Steeroids brackets are out of question, if I wanted sheetmetal I buy that at Home depot or Lowes.... :amused:

I am wondering if it's normal that the box is moving when you apply some force, I mean, it's not really a whole lot of force when you only turn the steering wheel....

I just tried to take a video but is too dark.... can't see much...
 
I am wondering if it's normal that the box is moving when you apply some force, I mean, it's not really a whole lot of force when you only turn the steering wheel....

Nope. Sounds like the 3 mounting bolts are loose.
 
well... you know... that's a good idea..... maybe I should see if the bolts are loose before I tear it all apart .... I'll be back in a few minutes.....
 
The one that I can get to from the top (the one towards the firewall) is tight.... I'll check the other two tomorrow but I'd be surprised if they're loose..... oh well... I have a bad feeling about this.... two years ago I started removing the heater and AC and ended up painting the car.... :ill::beer:
 
I'm not Gary by any means, but I have done 4 of these boxes now. The single largest improvement I have noticed you can do to the steering on these old cars is rebuild the box. The improvement is DRAMATIC. Of course, you need the kit from Gary, and a $150 torque wrench, but it really is a huge difference.
Let us know what you find. I just threw that in because if your going to take it off.........
 
I just put my box back on the car this afternoon - the only way that that box could be moving is if the bolts holding it to the frame are loose. The head of the one you checked is inside the frame with an access hole - the heads of the other two go all the way through the frame and you can look in the wheelwell just behind the wheel and see if they are loose. It has to be that.

Gary sent me the rag joint and the box rebuild kit and Jeff rebuilt the box and all I can say is that there is a night-and-day difference in the steering. I probably had almost 2 inches of play before and now I don't have any.
 
Maybe rust and cracks.... who knows.....

I don't really believe the box is all that bad, it's fine when driving with the ps pump operating and the system under pressure... I do believe that the movement I see at the box is something I should fix... not by rebuilding but by deleting the box..... if I have to go thru all this pain it will be a modern R&P system when I'm done....

.... whatever it takes...... :quote:

well... I got to enjoy my new cupholders for two days... I guess that's a good thing.... :bounce:
 
I'm not Gary by any means, but I have done 4 of these boxes now. The single largest improvement I have noticed you can do to the steering on these old cars is rebuild the box. The improvement is DRAMATIC. Of course, you need the kit from Gary, and a $150 torque wrench, but it really is a huge difference.
Let us know what you find. I just threw that in because if your going to take it off.........

Well, that's just it, and from the reports I followed up on over the years, they seem to mimick my experiences.....you can rebuild that damn box till the cows come home, and mine was a fresh rebuilt with NO noticeable play in it at all, on center or anywhere....but it is my opinion there is no other way than a rack for tight controll, no other steering comes close, and it's really noticed with lower profile/wider tires on there.....

thing is, none of us has any much standard of comparo not even the same roads, really....so between TIRES, suspension mods, weight, and a ton of other variables....so much of this gets down to a fairly meaningless discussion....I just know the mods and driving experiences with MY car....

as a mechanically stock virgin machine with some 150k on it when I got it, the front end was worn out, so was the rear, with rust in the t-arms, and so the entire suspensions were rebuilt....and I put in urethane, 460 VBP springs, KYB shocks, and in the rear VBP struts and 360 plastic spring, KYB once again....with the stock rebuilt steering, all was super well and fine....

so, when putting on the 17x9.5 wheels/tires were 40 series like '92 vette, the thing picked up a wander pattern I lived with for some 5 years....it was following ruts in the road like a old car from the 60s yet....

today it's like a new car....with total credit to the rack....and tires of course, but they were on it for some time by then....
 
Gene,
You won't get me to argue a R&P isn't better. I am merely stating if your going to retain the stock box, a refresh does ALOT for the control of the steering.
 
Gene,
You won't get me to argue a R&P isn't better. I am merely stating if your going to retain the stock box, a refresh does ALOT for the control of the steering.

Lotsa that has to do with the roads and where we are for that matter, I"d imagine your roadbed is lots stronger then them micro rocks we have....

ya think??

:banghead::gurney::drink:
 
Anyway.... I had my wife turn the steering wheel left/right with the engine/pump off while I stuck my head under the hood, expected to see play in the rag but ... I saw the entire steering box moving :amazed::skeptic: WTF ????

So what did you ever find???:sweat:
 
So what did you ever find???:sweat:

All bolts seem to be fine and tight. The frame does not look like it's flexing.... it's all good once the pump works and the system is pressurized....

It would be nice if someone could do what I did (move the steering wheel with the engine and pump off and see if your box moves). Maybe it's normal ???

I'll do the rack and pinion conversion anyways, hope nothing breaks until then :thumbs:
 
So what did you ever find???:sweat:

All bolts seem to be fine and tight. The frame does not look like it's flexing.... it's all good once the pump works and the system is pressurized....

It would be nice if someone could do what I did (move the steering wheel with the engine and pump off and see if your box moves). Maybe it's normal ???

I'll do the rack and pinion conversion anyways, hope nothing breaks until then :thumbs:

OK, lets back up and think about how this stock system operates....the ASSIST comes from the bottom of the frame, and is applied to that ram from the cross link...any force that is applied is opposing the input from the wheel...no?? at any rate the thing hardly flexes but that inherent slop in that controll valve makes for looser feel and weird feedbacks on rutted roads at speed....dont forget thie interstate hwy system was only on the drawing boards, let along built when pen went to paper on these cars, much less the tire changes over some 45 years.....

I thought the car was decent with stockish tires and so forth, but when putting on '92 vette rims/tires....everything changed....and was MOST noticed at high speeds on these road through sand pits here in Florida...

YMMV over roads built on Granite/etc....

I did the conversion for two reasons, the first was highway wandering, the second was the steering ratio...sucks for a sports car...16-1 ratio or 4 turns lock to lock....needs loose a turn, in other words 12-1 ratio....

so any correction needed is amplified by 25% right off the bat, then we add in the controll valve slop, then....well, I have to say it...but inherent slop in the entire system....you add all those linkages up for what passes for 'tight' and it's a lot when multiplied times FOUR on the steering input...

got to beeee, got to beeee....

CASE CLOSED.....
 
Well I received a PM from another forum member today and he confirmed that his box moves just like mine. Now I feel a little better as this seems to be normal.
Not too many of us actually look at the box while cranking the steering wheel left/right.... if this thread has woken up your curiosity then see for yourself....

I have not done the conversion to R&P for several reasons:
1) I am constantly fixing other stuff on this car
2) I have three other cars to work on (time and money)
3) I have too many other stuff to do (again, time and money)

The "to do list" for the '79 is posted in the project section.....

:suicide::push::suicide:
 
Top