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Belgian1979vette
05-12-2008, 09:17 PM
I would like some info on the oil systems you use in your cars. This came up in a another thread of mine. So I would like to see what you guys are using and how you installed it. What I'm aiming at is :
- wet sump pans...baffling...
- dry sump
- accumulator incorporated etc.

Pics would be great.

Twin_Turbo
05-12-2008, 09:26 PM
There's also a hybrid system. It's much like what the LS7 uses. It's an in sump pump that has 2 sections. One scavenge and one pumping section. The scavenge section scavenges the pan and routes the oil to a remote tank (the hoses go through the side of the oil pan, you need the special pan for this setup) and then the oil is de-aerated in the tank, like an ordinary dry sump tank and from the bottom a feed line runs back to the pressure section (though oil pan wall again)

The system was made by barnes but has been discontinued for quite some time. It's a neat system for where an all out dry sump system is not possible.


My accumulator is here:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

It'not so much for oil pressure fluctuations, it provides lubrication to the turbos after engine shutdown.

Same on this 80 formula turbo:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

This is the old barnes hybrid system:
[Only registered and activated users can see links] 63QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Belgian1979vette
05-12-2008, 10:21 PM
That Barnes system is pretty neat. Sad that it isn't available anymore. But placement of the tank (large) still remains a problem

Thanks for that picture TT. The accumulator is pretty large.

Do you have some pictures of your dry sump setup ?

redvetracr
05-12-2008, 10:31 PM
I think Barnes still sells the pans and service parts for the pump....basically (like Marck said) it`s a two stage in the pan dry sump system, I had one didn`t much care for it, sold it off and went three stage Weaver...that got replaced by a four stage Stock Car Products pump (basically a Weaver copy) & all larger lines. The more oil you can scavenge from the motor the less parasitic drag you have on your rotating assy, freeing up some horsepower, I have seen guys with big $ pumps suck so much oil out of the motor they had to install squirters in the pan to squirt oil on the piston pins...now your talking some real money. Years ago we ran mostly -10 lines then -12 and now only one -10 from the valley to the scavenge side of the pump the rest are all -12 with the return to the tank a -16, I have seen some return lines as big as -20...imagine what those hose ends cost? There is (or was) a swing pickup for use with a trap door road race pan developed by Smokey Yunick (I think)....but if your doing any type of road racing and value your motor you will go dry sump.
redvetracr

Twin_Turbo
05-12-2008, 10:34 PM
The dry sump pump won't fit without notching the frame! I don't have any pics here showing the pump installed. The only pic I have is of the tank

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Be aware that although the pump is expensive, with just the pump you're not even halfway the expenses. The lines will run up the cost considerably, as will the tank and the pan.


The accumulator is pretty large, the one in the firebird is half the size.

Twin_Turbo
05-12-2008, 10:41 PM
I think Barnes still sells the pans and service parts for the pump....basically (like Marck said) it`s a two stage in the pan dry sump system, I had one didn`t much care for it, sold it off and went three stage Weaver...that got replaced by a four stage Stock Car Products pump (basically a Weaver copy) & all larger lines. The more oil you can scavenge from the motor the less parasitic drag you have on your rotating assy, freeing up some horsepower, I have seen guys with big $ pumps suck so much oil out of the motor they had to install squirters in the pan to squirt oil on the piston pins...now your talking some real money. Years ago we ran mostly -10 lines then -12 and now only one -10 from the valley to the scavenge side of the pump the rest are all -12 with the return to the tank a -16, I have seen some return lines as big as -20...imagine what those hose ends cost? There is (or was) a swing pickup for use with a trap door road race pan developed by Smokey Yunick (I think)....but if your doing any type of road racing and value your motor you will go dry sump.
redvetracr

I think the service parts are only for the later models, if you buy an early pump you're SOL.

If you need pistons squirters you can get a VERY nice drilling fixture from Bo Laws that uses threaded jets. Commonly used for piston cooling.

Yes, smokey had that swinging pickup on a pump, he himself didn't care much for it either.

As for hose end pricing, those 2 120 deg. -16 an hose ends on my tank..they cost around 75$ a piece, there's another one on the pump return (-16 scavenge manifold) and I have a -16 feed from the bottom of the tank and I ujsed a -16 to -12 bulkhead to reduce it to the pumps -12 pressure feed. That way there'll always be plenty of oil at hand.

The tank return on mine is -20 but I reduced it to -16 (a -20 to -16 reducer is right around 60$ too)

TimAT
05-13-2008, 12:31 AM
MY BB is a wet sump- there is a baffle at the front of the deep part of the sump, with a hinged door to allow the front to drainback, and a circular baffle that's 1/4 off the floor centered in the backend of the pan- the pickup sets down in that. Stock GM parts too.

guru
05-13-2008, 12:32 AM
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turtlevette
05-13-2008, 01:59 AM
I have seen guys with big $ pumps suck so much oil out of the motor they had to install squirters in the pan to squirt oil on the piston pins...now your talking some real money.

i thought that was a function of rod side clearance. Open up the side clearance and it'll sling more oil on the underside of the piston.

What are squirters.

Belgian1979vette
05-13-2008, 07:47 AM
If I remember correctly they are drilled bores towards the main oiling galleys in the webs with a smaller orifice of some sort mounted in them that squirt oil directly at the bottom of the piston.
Was mainly used in turbocharged applications I believe.

Just a question. My pan has baffling that prevents the oil from coming up from the deep sump of the pan. This isn't enough apparently ?

Belgian1979vette
05-13-2008, 08:11 AM
The dry sump pump won't fit without notching the frame! I don't have any pics here showing the pump installed. The only pic I have is of the tank

Be aware that although the pump is expensive, with just the pump you're not even halfway the expenses. The lines will run up the cost considerably, as will the tank and the pan.


The accumulator is pretty large, the one in the firebird is half the size.


That notching is something that I wouldn't like to do, since my frame is already powder coated. Then it still leaves the big tank to tackle.

Yes, they are very expensive in parts. My guess is that a complete setup will run close to 3000 $ which is a big load of money.

The accumulator looks like a fine idea, except for the fact that it drains when you shut off the engine. So it first must fill up before the engine can reach its normal pressure. I think this is not so good either or i would have to mount that big thing somewhere in the passenger compartment.

Hmm

TheSkunkWorks
05-13-2008, 08:17 AM
I've had one of Moroso's 5-gate RR pans on a couple of BB's in my SA, and have suffered loss of prime on numerous occasions during long corners. Yes, it has been bottomed a couple of times, but was removed, inspected and repaired as necessary each time, so hanging gates should not have been the problem. The particular pan I have has been since discontinued, but I don't know if that means my problem was common or they just didn't sell enough units.

As I mentioned elsewhere when this topic arose, I'm changing to a different pan (Moroso #20403) with integral scraper and tray, and installing an accumulator (2qt.) in one last ditch effort to solve the issue before going dry sump. My idea is that the accumulator solenoid will be wired to allow pressure to be retained on shut down and to release that pressure to pre-lube before start up. Thoughts welcome...

For turning system on and off... [Only registered and activated users can see links]

For controlling at what pressure system functions, should you like... [Only registered and activated users can see links]

racervette69
05-13-2008, 10:45 AM
I use a moroso RR five door pan. Canton three qt Accusump. the 5 door still cannot control the oil. The accusump is dumping on long sweepers, which gives me 45 to 60 seconds of back up oil.

My accusump has a manual valve so I can cut it off while the engine is running. Holding the oil pressure in the tank until I restart teh engine. Release the valve, with engine not running and the pressure in the tank is released back to your engine right before you hit the start button.

Twin_Turbo
05-13-2008, 12:53 PM
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Looks like they have a gerotor pump for fords, not chevies, at least what I see is all just wet sump and a true dry sump. Was hoping someone would still make a hybrid pump.

Guess I'll have to keep watching ebay for one that's not messed up/servicable.

Belgian1979vette
05-13-2008, 06:54 PM
Wouldn't that oil tank heat your passenger compartment to much TT ?

Wonder if there would be smaller tanks and if the pump could be mounted at the top of the engine instead.

Twin_Turbo
05-13-2008, 07:15 PM
The accumulator looks like a fine idea, except for the fact that it drains when you shut off the engine.

Not if you get the optional electic valve, that will allow you to switch the line shut before shutting the engine down, you can then use it as a pre oiler on startup (you can also do that with the manual valve but it would mean you had to open the hood every time and flip the lever)

Twin_Turbo
05-13-2008, 09:19 PM
Wouldn't that oil tank heat your passenger compartment to much TT ?

Wonder if there would be smaller tanks and if the pump could be mounted at the top of the engine instead.

I'm going to put a wall behind the seats with a small window to separate the passenger compartment from the rear. Like this:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

The tank can be bought smaller. The pump can't be mounted a whole lot higher because of priming issues, it needs to be block mounted.

TheSkunkWorks
05-13-2008, 09:38 PM
I use a moroso RR five door pan. Canton three qt Accusump. the 5 door still cannot control the oil. The accusump is dumping on long sweepers, which gives me 45 to 60 seconds of back up oil.

My accusump has a manual valve so I can cut it off while the engine is running. Holding the oil pressure in the tank until I restart teh engine. Release the valve, with engine not running and the pressure in the tank is released back to your engine right before you hit the start button.

Sounds like you're doing just fine with the 5-gate with a large accumulator there. My problem was occuring so frequently that I began carrying a timing light and battery powered drill so I could re-prime roadside rather than going thru the hassles of trailering it home. What type of windage control have you in there? Maybe I just need to add a modern uni-directional screen (I mistakenly called it a tray earlier) from Stef's, stick with the old pan and scraper, and rely on the accumulator...

Yellow73SB
05-13-2008, 09:46 PM
i thought that was a function of rod side clearance. Open up the side clearance and it'll sling more oil on the underside of the piston.

What are squirters.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I know dodge nascar engines run them

Belgian1979vette
05-14-2008, 09:43 AM
I guess that from what I read from racers replies an accumulator with a electronic valve works fine on hp street use. I found out Canton sells some nice combo's.

Maybe I could mount them horizontally somewhere up front near my cooler.

gkull
05-15-2008, 09:35 PM
What are squirters.

The first piston pin squirters I ever saw came out in rice rocket motorcycles about 20 years ago. About the same time that production bikes were exceeding 12,000 rpm. oiling the upper pin and cooling the piston dome was accomplished by small diameter jets of oil squirting up from the bottoms of the cylinder bores.

I have an 8 quart RR pan with baffles and crank scrapers. It is not good for racing. I could go into a long turn with 80 psi and running a constant rpm through the turn see my oil pressure drop below 40 psi. The cheapest fix is just use [Only registered and activated users can see links]

The accusump is what I bought. I will be testing it June 13 and 14

TheSkunkWorks
05-15-2008, 10:10 PM
Looks like short of a dry sump that we're all ending up on pretty much the same page here...

Any one out there do an external pump wet sump system, or know any latent pro's and con's of such?

And, what opinions do you guys have about going to the trouble of squirters? When is it necessary/worth it? (Suspect they may be a good idea for something like TT's.)


BTW, thanks to Belgian1979vette for posting the tread. Worthy topic, this.

redvetracr
05-16-2008, 03:20 AM
And, what opinions do you guys have about going to the trouble of squirters? When is it necessary/worth it? (Suspect they may be a good idea for something like TT's.)
.

I believe oil squirter's are only necessary with high end pumps, pumps that pull a great deal of vacuum on a closed system, "closed system" meaning the only vents on the motor aren`t on the motor, there is a vent on the oil tank only...the valve covers are sealed....
redvetracr

Belgian1979vette
05-16-2008, 12:27 PM
Looks like short of a dry sump that we're all ending up on pretty much the same page here...

Any one out there do an external pump wet sump system, or know any latent pro's and con's of such?

And, what opinions do you guys have about going to the trouble of squirters? When is it necessary/worth it? (Suspect they may be a good idea for something like TT's.)


BTW, thanks to Belgian1979vette for posting the tread. Worthy topic, this.

The above is right. Dry sump would be a bullitproof system. However I currently only see one way of mounting the pump and that is removing the power steering pump and moving that one on the right cylinder bank and putting a dry sump in its place.
That would still leave us with the problem of fitting the large oil tanks. In the interior is out of the question (certainly on pre 78 models) because of the heat and place they take. I do not see where else it could be put.
Most of these tanks are somewhere between 15 and 20" long and some 10" thick.

I would appreciate Gkulls experience with long turns and the accusump. An accusump could be a lot easier mounted since you can mount it horizontally.

Belgian1979vette
05-16-2008, 12:29 PM
I believe oil squirter's are only necessary with high end pumps, pumps that pull a great deal of vacuum on a closed system, "closed system" meaning the only vents on the motor aren`t on the motor, there is a vent on the oil tank only...the valve covers are sealed....
redvetracr

Are you saying that all dry sumps should have a completly sealed engine ? Then indeed it would be necessary to have a squirter.

redvetracr
05-16-2008, 12:40 PM
Are you saying that all dry sumps should have a completly sealed engine ? Then indeed it would be necessary to have a squirter.

No, I am saying for maximum hp gain from a dry sump system the engine should be sealed, you can run a sealed motor without squirters. My motor is NOT sealed as I have a 4 stage Stock Car Products pump certainly adequate but far from "high end", look at Daily pumps if you want to see the ultimate in dry sump pumps...I run a single -12 hose from the valve cover to the tank and a -16 from the tank to a vent can. My tank is mounted in the area behind the passenger seat, I wouldn`t suggest anything less than a 3 gallon tank.
redvetracr

gkull
05-16-2008, 02:27 PM
I would appreciate Gkulls experience with long turns and the accusump. An accusump could be a lot easier mounted since you can mount it horizontally.

At the race shop where I work they have retrofitted several historic race cars with dry sump. It is not easy on Vettes and cars like our Vettes. They had to pull the motor out and notch and regusset the frame rail.

The accusump is a common sight at the road racing track on lower budget cars like mine.

redvetracr
05-16-2008, 03:01 PM
The above is right. Dry sump would be a bullitproof system. However I currently only see one way of mounting the pump and that is removing the power steering pump and moving that one on the right cylinder bank and putting a dry sump in its place.

look at a NASCAR racer, the power steering pump is relocated up to the LH head with a remote reservoir, and notching the frame is a piece of cake.
redvetracr

gkull
05-16-2008, 06:45 PM
look at a NASCAR racer, the power steering pump is relocated up to the LH head with a remote reservoir, and notching the frame is a piece of cake.
redvetracr


Yes, piece of cake can mean allot of things....... From start to finish maybe 40 man hours to convert to dry sump. If your time is free the hp gained only costs about $100 per hp. That is using conservative numbers like $2500 and 25 hp gained @ 18 inches of vacuum by the dry sump

Belgian1979vette
05-16-2008, 07:50 PM
Hp gain is not the real purpose of a dry sump imo, reliability and protection of the engine is.

turtlevette
05-16-2008, 08:25 PM
Hp gain is not the real purpose of a dry sump imo, reliability and protection of the engine is.


exactly,

Who do we know that has a car and the skills to corner hard enough for long enough to need a dry sump.

redvet
racervet

i can't think of any others. The rest of us are romper room racers with fisher price pedalcars.:pprrtt:

redvetracr
05-16-2008, 08:41 PM
Yes, piece of cake can mean allot of things....... From start to finish maybe 40 man hours to convert to dry sump. If your time is free the hp gained only costs about $100 per hp. That is using conservative numbers like $2500 and 25 hp gained @ 18 inches of vacuum by the dry sump

RE-READ my post...I said "notching the frame is a piece of cake"....it might take 40 hours if your including R&R of the engine to modify it for a drysump and mounting an oil pan but hanging the tank, lines, and screen filter doesn`t take 40 hours (the cooler should already be there)....maybe they are billing the "checkbook racers" for 40 hours but doing A Corvette is pretty straight forward IF one knows what he is doing and what parts to buy the first time....come to think of it the whole job is a piece of cake...if you know what you are doing.
redvetracr

redvetracr
05-16-2008, 08:46 PM
Hp gain is not the real purpose of a dry sump imo, reliability and protection of the engine is.

Dry sump oiling is no longer a luxury on a road coarse it`s a necessity, I wouldn`t dream of racing a car without one. When every horsepower counts unlocking the horsepower loss from parasitic drag becomes very important. If the horsepower is there why not unlock it?
redvetracr

PS: there was a show on the Speed channel where they went to the Corvette plant to document the build of a new ZO-6, part of the show was on a test track where the measured "G`s" they showed a U shaped tube partly filled with colored water, it didn`t take cornering much to move all that water up the side of the U and away from the center (where your oil pickup would be)....

Belgian1979vette
05-16-2008, 08:46 PM
exactly,

Who do we know that has a car and the skills to corner hard enough for long enough to need a dry sump.

redvet
racervet

i can't think of any others. The rest of us are romper room racers with fisher price pedalcars.:pprrtt:


I do not agree. :smash:

turtlevette
05-16-2008, 08:51 PM
I do not agree. :smash:

Ok,

it also looks neat at the show n' shine, so go for it.

gkull
05-16-2008, 09:25 PM
RE-READ my post...I said "notching the frame is a piece of cake"....it might take 40 hours if your including R&R of the engine to modify it for a drysump and mounting an oil pan but hanging the tank, lines, and screen filter doesn`t take 40 hours (the cooler should already be there)....maybe they are billing the "checkbook racers" for 40 hours but doing A Corvette is pretty straight forward IF one knows what he is doing and what parts to buy the first time....come to think of it the whole job is a piece of cake...if you know what you are doing.
redvetracr

I'd have to ask how many hours it took to do the two 1964 Bizzarini Iso Grifo Berlinetta 5300 Corsa (Grifo AC3 body and Corvette 327 cu in (5,360 cc) engine). and the two C-2 Vettes. They did a beautiful job on every one of them.

They didn't have an example to look at. I just pulled 40 man hours out of a hat. I was including the hours to R&R the motor.

I've given up on Racing my Vette. To run three 30 minute sessions (one day of SCCA racing) cost me about $850 each and every day. My front and rear tires last two race days. The tires are about $1200 mounted and balanced, $200 entry fee each day, $100 in race gas and fluids.

Yellow73SB
05-16-2008, 09:40 PM
Those r6's should definately be lasting longer than 3 30 minute sessions

gkull
05-16-2008, 11:01 PM
Those r6's should definately be lasting longer than 3 30 minute sessions

We have a very abrasive track. I even bought the optional factory heat cycled to make them last longer. As speed goes up tires go much faster. It's not just me I was talking to some of the other guys in the pits who were all in C-6 Z06s and they said they were getting two days out of their tire using 315 fronts and 335 rears

redvetracr
05-16-2008, 11:43 PM
I'd have to ask how many hours it took to do the two 1964 Bizzarini Iso Grifo Berlinetta 5300 Corsa (Grifo AC3 body and Corvette 327 cu in (5,360 cc) engine). and the two C-2 Vettes. They did a beautiful job on every one of them.

They didn't have an example to look at. I just pulled 40 man hours out of a hat. I was including the hours to R&R the motor.


except that by using a Bizzarini Iso Grifo instead of a standard Corvette race car for your comparison you are comparing apples to oranges.....dry sump oiling is actually pretty simple once you understand what all the parts do.
redvetracr

TheSkunkWorks
05-17-2008, 12:32 AM
exactly,

Who do we know that has a car and the skills to corner hard enough for long enough to need a dry sump.

redvet
racervet

i can't think of any others. The rest of us are romper room racers with fisher price pedalcars.:pprrtt:

Hey. Speak for yourself... :bump:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Twin_Turbo
05-17-2008, 02:27 AM
Yeah, there's not much to it really. A pump, a drive mandrel, some hoses, a tank and a filter (or multiple, depending on filtered scavenge lines and such)

Nothing the frame is really easy, notching the frame and having to incorporate a hole for a steering shaft, now then it gets exciting :D

Belgian1979vette
05-17-2008, 10:12 AM
Yeah, there's not much to it really. A pump, a drive mandrel, some hoses, a tank and a filter (or multiple, depending on filtered scavenge lines and such)

Nothing the frame is really easy, notching the frame and having to incorporate a hole for a steering shaft, now then it gets exciting :D

I agree that basically there is not much to the system. I can understand that notching the frame would be doable (except when it's already powder coated).
However I do not understand the relation between the steering and a hole in the frame ??

I'm not going to mount a dry sump just because it's nice to look at. It has to have some reason to it. The only reason for me is to avoid having damage to my engine, like TT stated in one of my other threads.
If a accusump wil suffice, then it will be a accusump. The only thing I have my doubts about is that when the oil pump sucks up air, this air gets entrapped in the lines/block bores. An accusump could supply the engine with the extra oil it needs, but the airbubbles will still get to the bearings, or am I seeing this wrong.

redvetracr
05-17-2008, 12:22 PM
However I do not understand the relation between the steering and a hole in the frame ??I believe it was a joke



The only thing I have my doubts about is that when the oil pump sucks up air, this air gets entrapped in the lines/block bores. An accusump could supply the engine with the extra oil it needs, but the airbubbles will still get to the bearings, or am I seeing this wrong.

there are two "sides" to a dry sump pump, the pressure side (a single stage) and the scavenge side usually two to four stages (each "stage" is a single pump), the (out side) of the scavenge stages are hooked together, either internally or externally with a "manifold". The pressure stage receives oil (only, no air) from the bottom of the tank, the scavenge stages suck oil and air out of the pan and sometimes out of the valley and return it to the top of the tank where (if you have a good tank) the oil and air get separated, the oil falls through baffles as it swirls around the side of the tank and the air escapes out the top of the tank...also on the pressure side is a screen filter used to collect trash (I run a remote, some guys mount small screens on the pan), on the pressure side you also have your cooler (which can also be mounted on the scavenge side) and a paper filter (usually remote)....it sounds complicated but if you looked at a schematic you would understand it.
redvetracr

Twin_Turbo
05-17-2008, 03:46 PM
I agree that basically there is not much to the system. I can understand that notching the frame would be doable (except when it's already powder coated).
However I do not understand the relation between the steering and a hole in the frame ??


The steering is not an issue you will see, however I have this:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And the steering shaft comes in where the pump sits, took a bit of fiddling to cram it all in there. I made a bracket to move the dry sump pump up a bit.

TheSkunkWorks
05-17-2008, 07:08 PM
FYI, just saw where Moroso has introduced a new "super duty" accumulator (#23902), and is now handling the electronic pressure control solenoids.

Belgian1979vette
05-17-2008, 08:06 PM
TT, I think you have an awsome car what is technical side is concerned, but I don't think there are many who have the same thing.

Would you be able to mount the pump on top of the engine and use an accumulator to prime it ?

Then it would only leave the oil tank to fiddle with. BTW what makes a dry sump tank so special ?

Twin_Turbo
05-17-2008, 08:11 PM
I know, my comment about the steering shaft was tongue in cheek, I meand that the dry sump pump install is pretty straightforward, as is notching the frame. No you can't mount the pump on top and use an accumulator to prime, you could use a check valve in the return line. The plates and internal design make the tank special, it's designed to de-aerate the oil (the oil comes back from the pump in a frothy state, like whipped cream) That's why you want a large, round and as tall as possible tank. Square ones don't work very well.

Belgian1979vette
05-17-2008, 08:24 PM
I thought I would add this for information. They basically give a reason for using squirters in the engine as has been mentioned before.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
(apparently I cannot get a direct link, but you have to click the technical info.

Twin_Turbo
05-17-2008, 08:34 PM
Squirters are not only used for pin oiling (there are other tricks for that like EDM machined rods), they're primarily used for piston crown cooling, especially on turbocharged/supercharged applications to keep the crown cool so you don't have to use thick rings (heat dissipation) and very thick crowns (lightweight pistons)

Do you mean this article?
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Belgian1979vette
05-17-2008, 08:41 PM
Yes, it suggests that a dry sump will draw so much of the oil vapor/oil out of the crankcase to starve the cylinderwalls and rodends.

White76
05-17-2008, 08:56 PM
I'm mounting an accumulator for my wet sump system vertically behind the driver's side front wheel where the charcol canister is originally mounted. Which way is the best direction to mount an accumulator ... oil discharge end pointing down or up?

TheSkunkWorks
05-17-2008, 09:48 PM
I'm mounting an accumulator for my wet sump system vertically behind the driver's side front wheel where the charcol canister is originally mounted. Which way is the best direction to mount an accumulator ... oil discharge end pointing down or up?

I'm not sure it matters, as there's no mention on the instruction sheet for mine...

redvetracr
05-17-2008, 10:10 PM
TT, I think you have an awsome car what is technical side is concerned, but I don't think there are many who have the same thing.

Would you be able to mount the pump on top of the engine and use an accumulator to prime it ?

Then it would only leave the oil tank to fiddle with. BTW what makes a dry sump tank so special ?

the tank is what separates oil and air...the better (read: more expensive) tanks do a better job. I had an old Moon tank in my car for years...besides the gasket in the middle I never had a problem, I switched to a 4 stage (more suction) with the 18* head motor, the Moon was no longer adequate, I took the Patterson tank out of my third racer added a baffle and a better vent and no more problems.
redvetracr

Twin_Turbo
05-17-2008, 10:33 PM
I have a patterson tank too, 5 gallons. Easy to take apart and clean. Just 2 halves with a large 2 pc u clamp and a big o ring in between.It comes apart completely, even the tray comes out. I modified mine and welded on -12AN bungs for fittings to hook up the evac. hoses. I didn't want rubber hoses on there and the tank came without any breather conenctions when I got it. If you buy a tank, make sure it has radial return inlets (top) and a central (bottom_ pickup for oil towards the pumps pressure section.

racervette69
05-18-2008, 12:32 AM
I'm mounting an accumulator for my wet sump system vertically behind the driver's side front wheel where the charcol canister is originally mounted. Which way is the best direction to mount an accumulator ... oil discharge end pointing down or up?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

redvetracr
05-18-2008, 01:00 AM
I have a patterson tank too, 5 gallons. Easy to take apart and clean. Just 2 halves with a large 2 pc u clamp and a big o ring in between.It comes apart completely, even the tray comes out. I modified mine and welded on -12AN bungs for fittings to hook up the evac. hoses. I didn't want rubber hoses on there and the tank came without any breather conenctions when I got it. If you buy a tank, make sure it has radial return inlets (top) and a central (bottom_ pickup for oil towards the pumps pressure section.


According to Mike at Patterson the correct way to vent the tank is to run a 1" aluminum tube into the side of the center column at the very top...he called it a "mouse tube", he also said adding another flat baffle would help, so we added another baffle. the top of your baffle has a series of holes going around it, does it look like someone took an awl and slightly bent the edge of each hole? Mine is an early designed 4 gal tank, the car it came out of had very few races on it so while it appears brand new it didn`t have the latest design vent but it did have the double row of holes bent with an awl, something they don`t do anymore...too expensive he said.
redvetracr

White76
05-18-2008, 01:35 AM
I'm not sure it matters, as there's no mention on the instruction sheet for mine...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Thanks guys, but here is what has got me wondering. The instructions state:

"The Accusump™ will work with the tube in any position or orientation; however, if possible, mount the tube with
the oil end (the end with the oil valve) slightly higher than the air end. This will prevent accumulation of air bubbles
(coming from foam in the oil) by purging any minor air pocket during pre-oiling, when it will not cause any harm."

I just didn't know how important this was. I would prefer to mount the accumulator with the oil valve at the bottom amd the air valve and gauge at the top so I could get to them easier. However, if it is important to purge the air pocket during pre-oiling, I could mount the unit the other way and run two lines to remote mount the gauge & air valve so I wouldn't have to crawl under the car to see them. It would just take more work, parts, and $$$.

Jason

gkull
05-18-2008, 04:23 AM
exactly,

Who do we know that has a car and the skills to corner hard enough for long enough to need a dry sump.

redvet
racervet

i can't think of any others. The rest of us are romper room racers with fisher price pedalcars.:pprrtt:

Sir, I have never understood what chip you have on your shoulder................ I always applaud the underdog. I throw what I can afford into what ever I do. I just do what i can. I work a second job at a race shop to learn. Then I do what I can.

I made a three dollar camera mount for in car videos. I posted them for all to see and you heckled me for my lack of skill..... Little did you know that that the cheap steel wheels, Brakes that over heat and completely failed, wrong size sportsmans slicks, and wrong tire pressures made it like driving on grease.

I changed my tires and drove home............. Never gave it another thought , other than what I would do better next time. Only to come back and find out that I had placed first in class with the fastest time in BP for that SCCA TT event.

I applaud you for going out to the track on occasion................ Why don't you give that consideration to others?

racervette69
05-18-2008, 02:41 PM
Belgian1979vette, What are you going to use your car for?

OT,,Admiration should be given to anyone that has the initiative and is willing to risk the destruction of their C3. Be it,,, Autoxs, HPDEs, TTs Drags, RR, or other sanctioned speed events. Just take all those mods and get out there.. if you are first or last,, you are still one of the few.

Belgian1979vette
05-18-2008, 05:46 PM
Well racer, I would like to go to the dry sump setup, but if I would do it, it would have to be with as minimal changes to the car as possible. Look at it like this : I built my engine as a sort of experiment to see how well it works. After my vette is complete, i will probably not ever restore another one because of the cost involved in these cars and the growing anti-car climate that is currently ruling here. However I do like working on cars so much that I will venture in building a purpose built racechassis with a chevy engine setup. If my engine turns out to be a good engine, i may eventually transplant it to the racecar and drop in a hopped up 350 in the vette without all the rings and bells this engine has. That is why the car needs as little changes as necessary. The kind of hp this engine (should) produce is basically not usable around here with all the speed limits :banghead:
A dry sump could be something I would need for this future race chassis so it would not be money trown away. BTW I would run this racecar on a nearby ex formula 1 circuit (Zolder, which is about 10 kms from my home).

I'm looking into mounting a other kind of power steering pump on the right cylinder bank with a remote fluid tank and then mount a dry sump pump on the lower left side of the engine. That way I could use the existing frame crossmember notching that is already built in (don't know if that would work, so feel free to correct me)
That would leave only the oil tank to be fiddled with and seen the fact that space in our cars is a rare commodity, this will be the biggest problem.

Maybe a small unbaffled rectangular tank would work on the street and some spirited driving on back roads or in Germany. I would definatly to avoid having my expensive engine being damaged from lack of lubrication.

Belgian1979vette
05-31-2008, 08:44 PM
Anyway, after much debate and counting beans I took the easy way out and ordered a accusump. I came in friday. It looks like I can tuck this away somewhere up front with my oil cooler.

Thanks for the input guys.:thumbs:

TheSkunkWorks
06-01-2008, 01:42 AM
Post up with your install details, as I'm sure we'd like to see how you address it.

Twin_Turbo
06-01-2008, 08:27 AM
Is yours spring or air pressured 9does it have a valvestem on one side)? If it's air pressured you can mount it any way you want.

Belgian1979vette
06-01-2008, 04:13 PM
Airpressured, i can use a pump from a bicycle to put pressure on it.