Carb to EFI conversion...

Hey guys, what do you think of this to replace a carb? Includes EVERYTHING. Injectors, fittings, fuel rails, throttle body, gaskets, etc...



This can be sold for $1300 for the entire kit. You pick up an ECU if you don't have one, a stock 7747 ECU (about $100 with a harness) I'll do the tune as part of the price.

So $1400-1500 DONE.

To go from carb to injection, what do you think?

Largest problem is the ECU and the attendant programming....

without a GOOD programmer, you going to have some issues, especially for old 80's tech computers...PIA sending all those cal paks and even proms, (soldered into place by GM).....

then the nagging detail of it being essentially a TBI setup....

all the fuel suspension theory, I dunno if it's worth the bother or not...

in today's tight markets for gold bricks at a dime....I think maybe to back off on that concept for NOW, anyway....

:clobbered:

:withstupid:I really don't know that I would spend that kind of money for a glorified tbi set up. Seems a guy could put together a basic multipoint set up for the same or not much more money. Maybe that is something to consider.

Gene, with a 7747 ECU we have the programming baked.

74, it's not glorified, it is TBI with 4 injectors.

You guys are tough, on FB and on a couple other forums they think it's a good deal.



Thanks for the input. Exactly what I wanted to hear.

Hey, here's the kinds of comments I'm getting on other forums:

This is a nice kit. The price is unbeatable. I was thinking I could build on of these myself fairly easily, but I wouldn't be able to match the price point.

Intake manifold ~$300
Fuel injectors ~$250
Fuel Rails ~$100
TB ~$200
Fuel pump ~$150
FPR ~$100
Misc parts/ fittings ~$200
Machine work ~$100

Thats $1400 not including overhead and all the other business expenses (i.e. packaging , shipping , R&D........). This is a great deal!

Click to expand...

Plus I throw in the tune, don't forget that is worth a few hundred.

And this:

That is f'n cheap. Too bad you didn't post this a few years ago when I had money. How much hp can it support?

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So seriously guys, I love the "slap of reality", how do you figure I'm priced out. Of all the feedback I get, none have been that price is the issue. We see what happens with the Megasquirt. There is a "cheap, fast, works issue here.

John, Is it necessary to change the intake manidfold to make this TB conversion?

Bullshark said:

John, Is it necessary to change the intake manidfold to make this TB conversion?

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NO.

My goal for this was to replace the crossfire with something that is readily available. Then started thinking it would be good as a carb conversion. The throttle body is available separately.

The other alternative is to have us add bungs to existing manifolds, which we do, but that is expensive, we get $600 just to do that. Then you have to buy the elbow for a couple hundred bucks.

We have solutions such as both cast and billet throttle bodies which bolt up to a 4bbl base.

Here is the cast:


• 4150 flange 750 cfm throttle body
• Provisions for 4 injectors
• Fuel rails with 6AN o-ring ports
• Supplied with a fuel psi regulator
• Supplied with TPS
• Economical way to convert any engine up to 550 HP to EFI

You can add a spacer for that too for more power. Basically plug and play if you have an ECU. Add the tune for $110 for the chip.

Price on that TB is:$550

The Billet version is up to 2000 CFM and is $250 more.

John, my comment is maybe too hard as to the olde tyme hortodder in me, that is junkyard style....after 50 years it's kinda hard to break olde habits....

actually it's cheep, really, for all new gear....

some 4-5? years ago I had a bad tuning experience with Mega Squirt, and I had talked to Bruce Bowling-Al Grippo on the phone years previously when doing a DPFI set up on a old 455 Pontiac I had....junkyard style....

I think MS one was on the market, or not far away....

my issue with the MS3? I had was getting a laptop to talk to the MS through that damn antiquated serial D connector on it.....never did find a adaptor, and I not geek enough to figger around it.....

:bonkers::crutches:

mrvette said:

John, my comment is maybe too hard as to the olde tyme hortodder in me, that is junkyard style....after 50 years it's kinda hard to break olde habits....

actually it's cheep, really, for all new gear....

some 4-5? years ago I had a bad tuning experience with Mega Squirt, and I had talked to Bruce Bowling-Al Grippo on the phone years previously when doing a DPFI set up on a old 455 Pontiac I had....junkyard style....

I think MS one was on the market, or not far away....

my issue with the MS3? I had was getting a laptop to talk to the MS through that damn antiquated serial D connector on it.....never did find a adaptor, and I not geek enough to figger around it.....

:bonkers::crutches:

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But Gene, you have all that free time....

BTW, all of our equipment for these TBs are 100% American made. Cast, machined, assembled all in the US by US companies, no cheap china crap here.

How does the system compare in numbers to a efi port injected manifold with an elbow and throttle body based on the same engine? Or a efi port injected manifold with say a 4 barrel throttle body?

JeffP1167 said:

How does the system compare in numbers to a efi port injected manifold with an elbow and throttle body based on the same engine? Or a efi port injected manifold with say a 4 barrel throttle body?

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It is hard to say, as 15 years ago I paid like 300-350 for my stock TPI at Carlisle....with injectors....complete except for them metric bolts...harder to find then....another 30 bux I think, not all THAT bad...

so junkyard computer for ten bux, wiring was basically free/connectors from junkyard...then the Cal Pak...

I know I paid 150 for my LT1 induction off the net with rails...no injectors...

that's what's on the car now with your injectors...runs great...

but of course to fit the L98, I could not have done it without my welder buddy and his TIG machine...

he must have 2 hours of stick time on that conversion....and I have over 6 trips to his place

and the reason it's not pretty and all is I did what I thought was a 'test fit'...

it works perfect, leave well enough ALONE....

:shocking:

so for me to say what stuff costs in today's market is a bit much...

I hear TPI units are still 300 bux complete....no computer....

I had to do a lot of work for my initial conversion...cost me about 750 bux total....this was after the Pontiac conversion, and the boat conversion...so it was easy, really...but that was 15 years ago too...

so today for a bolt on?? USA made....your price is cheep as hell....

but the only foreseeable project it could go on would be the motor home project....

and that's going to be a while...:shocking:

JeffP1167 said:

How does the system compare in numbers to a efi port injected manifold with an elbow and throttle body based on the same engine? Or a efi port injected manifold with say a 4 barrel throttle body?

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Ya know, I have always been skeptical about "this part makes more power than that part".

It depends is the answer, on a lot of things.

The 750 CFM will suppport up to 550HP or so, the billet 2000 CFM model will support into 4 digits of HP, and both have been made with this system. It really depends on how you design the motor rather than the parts you use. I have seen people on another "corvette forum" use the top of the line most shiny parts and make basically pathetic HP for the money. I've seen well designed junkyard engines SMOKE those "cool parts" motors.

So I guess philosophically, I don't take a position of "how much power will this part make". The answer is 550 can be supported with the cast version here that I put in this kit, $250 more if you want to go to 1000 for the TB, and incrementally for bigger injectors if necessary. At that point, you'd want a new ECU and I'll let that go for $1900 complete with wideband. See how fast it goes up? That is if the rest of the build is up to the task.

If you have $3000-4000 to drop for an intake, we can set you up with one of these, or make something completely unique based on your wallet:

http://vettemod.com/forum/showpost.php?p=63705&postcount=35

The niche for this is budget minded people who want to do a carb conversion, or get off the cross fire. If you want a complete system with an ECU and multiple injectors and such, that can run $4000. If budget isn't an issue, there are other options. I sell more 160 and 220 injectors than anything else. Many of my customers are using 2 or 3 220s per cyl making 2000-3000 HP.

For the street, we just finished up a 750 HP GTO and 1100 C5. That cost money.

See customers using our ECUs and injectors:

Mark Pickens:


Corey Glidwell


TJ Tracey



Brad Clarke



The throttle body conversion is a street solution.

I'm testing how well this stuff performs in a street car.

Why not one of these?



EZ-EFI® Self Tuning Fuel Injection System (Base Kit)

EZ-EFI® Self Tuning Fuel Injection System (Base Kit) Quantity in Basket: None
Code: 30226-KIT
Price: $1,837.45
Shipping Weight: 11.20 pounds

Quantity:


FAST® engineers set out to develop the ultimate fueling strategy for the EZEFI ®. The EZ-EFI® features patent pending technology with the most advanced self tuning control strategy available anywhere today. Simply hook up the four necessary wires and any optional wires, answer the basic setup Wizard questions on the included hand-held display and the system tunes itself as you drive. Countless research and development hours were spent on a number of prototype test vehicles to develop a high-quality system truly worthy of the FAST® brand.

Capable of supporting up to 550 horsepower engines, the FAST® EZ-EFI® Self Tuning Fuel Injection System can be purchased as a complete system, including the ECU, wide-band oxygen sensor, wiring harness, fuel injectors, optional fuel pump kit and other assorted components, including the innovative 4150 Throttle Body from FAST®.

The FAST® 4150 Throttle Body delivers the total package approach for anyone with an existing 4150-type intake manifold. Everything comes with the kit, including appropriate fuel injectors and fuel rails. In addition, it works with the original carb-style throttle linkage & is ready to accept all OEM sensors.




After this weekend if mine does not sell I'll sell it to you brand new for 1450 plus the ride.

JeffP1167 said:

How does the system compare in numbers to a efi port injected manifold with an elbow and throttle body based on the same engine? Or a efi port injected manifold with say a 4 barrel throttle body?

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I know from reading up on household HVAC manuals that when you turn a 90* corner in a duct, you loose some large percentage of airflow/pressure/delivery....

I can't imagine it being much different from blow to suck....

at any rate, when doing a DPFI on a old Pontiac 455 years ago, that thing has INSTANT throttle response and from near zero rpm too....1000 cfm throttle body in place of the AFB pattern tends to do that...

I used a antiquated junkyard system for it, but it pulled like MAD....

I should have been a diesel mechanic, I guess....instant torque at 200 rpm....

:tomato::goodevil::clobbered:

brngrhd said:

Why not one of these?

EZ-EFI® Self Tuning Fuel Injection System (Base Kit)

EZ-EFI® Self Tuning Fuel Injection System (Base Kit) Quantity in Basket: None
Code: 30226-KIT
Price: $1,837.45
Shipping Weight: 11.20 pounds

Quantity:


FAST® engineers set out to develop the ultimate fueling strategy for the EZEFI ®. The EZ-EFI® features patent pending technology with the most advanced self tuning control strategy available anywhere today. Simply hook up the four necessary wires and any optional wires, answer the basic setup Wizard questions on the included hand-held display and the system tunes itself as you drive. Countless research and development hours were spent on a number of prototype test vehicles to develop a high-quality system truly worthy of the FAST® brand.

Capable of supporting up to 550 horsepower engines, the FAST® EZ-EFI® Self Tuning Fuel Injection System can be purchased as a complete system, including the ECU, wide-band oxygen sensor, wiring harness, fuel injectors, optional fuel pump kit and other assorted components, including the innovative 4150 Throttle Body from FAST®.

The FAST® 4150 Throttle Body delivers the total package approach for anyone with an existing 4150-type intake manifold. Everything comes with the kit, including appropriate fuel injectors and fuel rails. In addition, it works with the original carb-style throttle linkage & is ready to accept all OEM sensors.


After this weekend if mine does not sell I'll sell it to you brand new for 1450 plus the ride.

Click to expand...

You can't control the timing curve with the FAST. It's $600 more. You can with the 7747. Why wouldn't you want to control timing whey you're trying to control fuel?

If you wanted to spend a couple extra bucks, I'd throw my ECU in there for $2500 for the complete system. HOWEVER with my system you have complete control of the timing curve, and a PC interface rather than a little LCD screen.

So for a few bucks more you're getting a LOT more, and a totally different class of product, as opposed as paying $600 more for a name.

And to be honest, the kit that is MORE comparable to this is $2244. You quoted the base kit price so the comparison isn't fair. What is fair is their complete kit for $2244 to my kit with the full blown ECU (which smokes their handheld thing) at $2500 for the ability to have timing control and PC interface.

And finally, if you really need help, I will support you with the engineers who actually designed and built this. Can't get that anywhere else! . Just talking to me alone is worth a few bucks.

Complete kit from FAST: http://www.compperformancegroupstor...Code=FS&Product_Code=30227-KIT&Category_Code=

Other than the FAST name, what's the advantage?

Oh, btw, I carry FAST too. FAST is a good system and has it's place. However, IMO this TB has a different spot in the market. If you're running a setup with coil over plug, use the Fast. If you have a crossfire, or going from Carb to FI and need a budget solution, this TB can work.

If you're running a distributor system, after I'm done testing, I'm confident this new ECU (for me) is going to be the way to go.

I try to understand each niche' in the market and provide the most value to solve the problem. Sometimes it's FAST, sometimes it's something else.

Just sayin. Put the right shoe on the right sized foot for the best budget for a quality part.

oops sorry that is what i get for skimming over your post i was reading it as you were looking for an EFI not selling the stuff. sorry for jacking your thread.

brngrhd said:

oops sorry that is what i get for skimming over your post i was reading it as you were looking for an EFI not selling the stuff. sorry for jacking your thread.

Click to expand...

Don't sweat it, I appreciate the softball!!!

Gave me the chance to ramble and make a good comparison. No biggie!

If you need injectors or anything for that setup, www.injectorsplus.com (shameless plug)

This looks like a system I would like to try. It won't be any time soon as I'm currently broke, and sick. But I really want to ditch the Holley in my car and go for FI. The general question I have is more about TBI vs MPFI and the like. I see systems like yours and the Holley Commander system that are in the $1500 range. Then I see some really trick looking systems like that Edlebrock ProFlo system for about twice as much. I have to imagine that the ProFlo system makes more power, but another $1500 worth? I'm guessing there's maybe 15-20hp difference between the two, max, with no other differences in the engine. I'm thinking I could find that power difference or more somewhere else for less than that. Besides, I'm not looking to make 500+hp. I want to put down somewhere around 300-350hp to the wheels. If I can do that, I'll be plenty happy.

After working carbs for a good many years on a range of muscle cars, and then being "converted" to efi, I am a firm believer in the throttle response and gas mileage of efi.

I haven't gotten deeply into the ECU tuning end of it but have done some mods to my "hot rod Lincoln" with the excellent Ford eec-iv system and understand pretty well how efi works, both mass air and speed density. Years ago I also had one of the early Holley Pro Jection TBI setups and, for what it was, saw that as a considerable upgrade altho with some system shortcomings that generally available technology (wide band 02 for tuning) and upgrades (closed loop kit for it) have since improved. I still have it so, budget concerns always an issue, have planned my engine upgrade around it. However, it's limited to about 325 hp max. I've read all about the similar but newer style TBI setups such as the FAST EZ EFI and the Pro Jection setups that are self learning but don't want to spend all my available resources on just the engine upgrade.

So - what ECU does your system use, it apparently is speed density so how does one go about getting it tuned - does it require a dyno tuning session, is there any adaptive learning, can it be done with a laptop, or will one have to depend on your experience to hopefully get an adequate tune for one's specific engine combo, and will it need a chip to make the tune work and where is that available? Yeah, lots of questions.

I am interested but would want to know just how difficult or involved it would be to get a good tune to the specific engine combo.

Thx!

BTW - I think the market definitely has a place for a system priced ~40% less than ones like the FAST or ProJect TBI setups.