Modern computers....

mrvette

mrvette

Phantom of the Opera
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
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I have a old speed density batch fire computer, programing needs changed via cal paks and so wondering just what advantage to go with a newer computer, say a LS series....and what other cars/engines take the same computer....the computers I have were running in 4-8 cyl engines from say '89 -92 or better....and with new cal packs they run this L98 type hotrod,

just what would I be getting into? and cost estimates....I know about the wiring already...not a issue, interested in the computer requirements and programming, etc....
:shocking::beer:
 
Egad! Batch fire? Well not too much has improved. I believe a lot of modern comps still do batch fire above a certain rpm range. I am also under the impression that these older comps run off analog signals where more modern ones use digital.
On Ls1tech in the conversions section there are guys putting LSx's into there LT1 cars, but they are swapping the computers and wiring harness along with it (I believe). Now that merely points to the fact that an LT1 comp can't run an LS1. But it may suggest the other way isn't a good way either.

What's your reasoning for switching?

I say drop in an LS1 and be done with it :D
 
greg75vette said:
Egad! Batch fire? Well not too much has improved. I believe a lot of modern comps still do batch fire above a certain rpm range. I am also under the impression that these older comps run off analog signals where more modern ones use digital.
On Ls1tech in the conversions section there are guys putting LSx's into there LT1 cars, but they are swapping the computers and wiring harness along with it (I believe). Now that merely points to the fact that an LT1 comp can't run an LS1. But it may suggest the other way isn't a good way either.

What's your reasoning for switching?

I say drop in an LS1 and be done with it :D
Click to expand...

I thinking that other than ~100 lbs lighter, it's still a ~350 ci V8 engine, and so just HOW much more inherent 'efficiency' will a LS bring to the table, for all the mechanical nitemare??

then since the computer switch would be much easier, just specifically how much improvement could THAT bring?? I can't see why a proper install of a LS computer on a L98-LT engine could not work, question is....what IF any advantage is there??
 
I'm thinking little benefit vs. effort. The approach I think you would have to take is swap over the entire LSx wiring harness and ECU. From what I understand, and this maybe key, is the 98 Fbody comp is supposedly more inline with the older GM ECU's. They are bastard child because the pinouts are different for them then others. But as far as I know, you still have to switch over the harness as well, but there will be more in common with the harness you currently have.

Actually, what harness to you have? I'm assuming you have an LT1 harness.

As far as LS for LT efficiency, I believe it's all in the head design. The heads and entire engine were a completely new and fresh sheet of paper design. That's why the heads are not interchangeable. I know they have really good swirl in the combustion chamber which takes away from your VE, but gives you a more homogeneous A/F mixture. Above that, can't think of any serious efficiency gains. I'm sure the ECU helps to add more, but what exactly, couldn't tell you.

You of all people shouldn't be intimidated by an LSx swap. It would just be another chapter in your vette's existence. Come to the dark side :evil:
 
greg75vette said:
I'm thinking little benefit vs. effort. The approach I think you would have to take is swap over the entire LSx wiring harness and ECU. From what I understand, and this maybe key, is the 98 Fbody comp is supposedly more inline with the older GM ECU's. They are bastard child because the pinouts are different for them then others. But as far as I know, you still have to switch over the harness as well, but there will be more in common with the harness you currently have.

Actually, what harness to you have? I'm assuming you have an LT1 harness.

As far as LS for LT efficiency, I believe it's all in the head design. The heads and entire engine were a completely new and fresh sheet of paper design. That's why the heads are not interchangeable. I know they have really good swirl in the combustion chamber which takes away from your VE, but gives you a more homogeneous A/F mixture. Above that, can't think of any serious efficiency gains. I'm sure the ECU helps to add more, but what exactly, couldn't tell you.

You of all people shouldn't be intimidated by an LSx swap. It would just be another chapter in your vette's existence. Come to the dark side :evil:
Click to expand...

MONEY man, money....since I did the heavy mechanical shit, it's been all light on the wallet type stuff....that and I have space limitation NOW, since I turned the kitchen over to the 'new' wife, and can't wash engine parts in the dishwasher anymore...type shit....That and her Miata take up almost 1/2 the garage....it's only 18' wide....

My harness and wiring is all courtesy of a junkyard always has been....
I"m a olde tyme ET from vacuum tube daze yet, so have scopes and test gear up the ass.....but that don't make for much when I dunno .commmmm on the computer end of crap.....as BBshark, and Bullshark know I tried a change to the Mega Squirt system some 3? years ago, and had all sorts of 'software' or .commmm problems between laptops and keystrokes, and all that supposedly 'simple' shit that never worked for me....

so the distrust over aftermarket 'systems' is great....

I am NOT Bill Gates either in computer working or money....
:surrender:
 
Fair enough. I get the money issue and distrust. I don't think I can help you further. There are some LT1 boards within LS1tech that might help you. I'm sure a few have done something close or know what not to do. That's the best I can offer, but I don't think the benefit will outweigh the work needed.
 
greg75vette said:
Fair enough. I get the money issue and distrust. I don't think I can help you further. There are some LT1 boards within LS1tech that might help you. I'm sure a few have done something close or know what not to do. That's the best I can offer, but I don't think the benefit will outweigh the work needed.
Click to expand...

Yeh, that's what I was afraid of, still hoping that some guy figgered out some way that more modern computer tech can help earlier engines.....like TPI did on my L48 stock engine, years ago....

but so it seems that once the 'change over' is made, there is little to be gained within the 'bin' of parts on that score....
:flash:
 
The biggest issue I see is input signal compatibility with the ECM. The software is written to deal with a specific crankshaft sensor signal pattern (although some sophisticated software sets have a couple optional input patterns they will recognize), and either the sensor wheels or software must be modified to be compatible. Neither of these options is generally easy to do for the average enthusiast.
 
I saw some details about this LS computer conversion on an EFI forum before. Also, some guys on a Chevy truck forum have been doing these conversions for a couple of years now. I believe the hot ticket is to find a 2001ish Chevy (GMC?) Savannah full size van and pull the computer and wiring harness. The vortec trucks of the late 90's can supply the distributor, timing cover, and reluctor wheel from the crankshaft. The system will use the LS style coil setup. Go to a pick n pull some afternoon, drop about $100 and you're in business. I don't think you need the fancy billet 24x reluctor on that website. Some dudes converted their TPI to sequential injection doing this mod. It also allows the user to use LS laptop software/computer to upload tunes.
 
To answer the question I think your asking.... The new ECM's are a lot faster.

Their ability to receive, process, and use data far exceeds the 80's and 90's stuff. A distributor based system would see the equivalent of four pulses per rev. A 24x wheel on the same crank would provide data six times more often, allowing the ECM to make corrections that much faster for accel or deccel.

Batch fire injection still creates a fairly "wet" intake compared to sequential operation tied to valve opening events.

The knock sensor strategy is much more sophisticated and includes a second programmable table.

The mass air meters are much more accurate than the earlier ones and the ECM combines data from it with data from the MAP sensor.

O2 sensors on each bank, DBW throttle bodies, coil per cylinder, trans control, programmable for referenced and non-referenced (returnless) fuel systems, etc.

Oh, in car programming, VE tables and logs, that can be used to quickly build new, custom maps on the dyno or the road.

It's like moving from a 486 based laptop to a dual core Pentium.

If your plugs are clean, and the engine runs well and your not constantly playing with your combo, none of the above matters.

Rob
 
Thanks Mr Force.....and...

Welcome to the motley crew of the Flying Dutchmen....

any relation to the famous Drag racer/Top Fuel guy???

gotta ask....

:shocking:
 
mrvette said:
I have a old speed density batch fire computer, programing needs changed via cal paks and so wondering just what advantage to go with a newer computer, say a LS series....and what other cars/engines take the same computer....the computers I have were running in 4-8 cyl engines from say '89 -92 or better....and with new cal packs they run this L98 type hotrod,

just what would I be getting into? and cost estimates....I know about the wiring already...not a issue, interested in the computer requirements and programming, etc....
:shocking::beer:
Click to expand...

I am assuming that you are referring to the 411 PCM. I have looked into doing it myself. I would think you could get the parts for $200-400. The real downside is the price of the software to program it all to work and that is in the $600-800 price range last I looked. Not only is the computer faster, but you would have sequential port and it would allow you to run coil on plug. Not to mention you would be able to run a trans with the same computer.
 
I've had my "411 conversion" running since last fall. If you are planning on running coil packs then the price goes up dramatically. The custom made 24X reluctor is required as well as the coil packs. The custom made harness alone was around $700. Here is a picture of my conversion.

ductwork003.jpg
 
Hey gene, check this out:
http://vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?p=66537#post66537

I have installed this sytem in my car, if not for the fact MSD didn't send me a harness wire, I'd be done by now.

There's only 5 pages of programming and the wiring harness has been a piece of cake.

It is relatively inexpensive compared to other alternatives on the market, about $1500 less.

This system has 4 drivers so it fires two injectors at a time.

I am in the process of finishing it up.

The ECU is small and I did a piggy back install. The stock ECU controls AC/speedo ect. And the new ECU controls fuel delivery.

The install took all of about 2 hours tops. The programming looks fairly easy.

I'll let you know. As you know you can call me at any time. 201-403-3699, which is my cell number.

Or at the office 201-258-5600, which I forward to my cell.
 
mrvette said:
I have a old speed density batch fire computer, programing needs changed via cal paks and so wondering just what advantage to go with a newer computer, say a LS series....and what other cars/engines take the same computer....the computers I have were running in 4-8 cyl engines from say '89 -92 or better....and with new cal packs they run this L98 type hotrod,

just what would I be getting into? and cost estimates....I know about the wiring already...not a issue, interested in the computer requirements and programming, etc....
:shocking::beer:
Click to expand...

Hey Gene, I am testing this system for distributor based cars because of the complexity and expense mentioned in this thread. Cost for this system complete is $1975 everything you need INCLUDING PROGRAMMING for a complete installation. That is for ONE wideband O2, if you want a second, that's about $300 with the module. It will support 2, but I don't think it's necessary. By comparison the BS3 system would be about $3200 once you're done.

The install was easy enough. I'll see how it works in the next couple weeks MAX. I won't sell anything I can't prove out first. I know a couple big name racers using this system so there's a good background for it. What is taking me longer is I went to an MSD setup, and needed to integrate the MSD to the ECU. If I just did ECU, 2 hours, DONE. As far as installation goes it really is plug and play.

I spent a few days out in Michigan with the CEO of Dart. They use this systems themselves on all their motors, he is the one who turned me onto this and why I decided to try it.

As I said, don't be afraid to call me if you need anything.
 
Last edited:
69427 said:
The biggest issue I see is input signal compatibility with the ECM. The software is written to deal with a specific crankshaft sensor signal pattern (although some sophisticated software sets have a couple optional input patterns they will recognize), and either the sensor wheels or software must be modified to be compatible. Neither of these options is generally easy to do for the average enthusiast.
Click to expand...

You can deal with that with an MSD distributor with a "cam sensor" in it, but be ready to fork over $1000 or more by the time you're done. The control box is $400, the distributor is another $500 then there's "stuff" like a coil, etc...
 
Jsup said:
69427 said:
The biggest issue I see is input signal compatibility with the ECM. The software is written to deal with a specific crankshaft sensor signal pattern (although some sophisticated software sets have a couple optional input patterns they will recognize), and either the sensor wheels or software must be modified to be compatible. Neither of these options is generally easy to do for the average enthusiast.
Click to expand...

You can deal with that with an MSD distributor with a "cam sensor" in it, but be ready to fork over $1000 or more by the time you're done. The control box is $400, the distributor is another $500 then there's "stuff" like a coil, etc...
Click to expand...

Mike, I been tossing that around on the sensor signature....I don't think that makes any sense to me.....you pass a piece of steel with serrated edges by a magnet with a coil of wire around it....the steel will obviously induce a signature in the wire....if you use both poles of the magnet or even just one, the only variation in signal would be what polarity you want or the amplitude........

NO??.....

steel passes, magnetized, notch appears, field collapses, kick back....

I really wonder if a infra red sensor signal isn't better, as really all I did on a Volvo engine boat I had in the early 90's...was take the X1-X2 pulse input on a Grand Am computer, and triggered it off a hole in the crank pulley running IR led's/pickups...and set it for 5 volt TTL level....

much cleaner and easier then messing with coils and magnets....

but not in a tranny, obviously....

:crutches:
 
mrvette said:
Jsup said:
69427 said:
The biggest issue I see is input signal compatibility with the ECM. The software is written to deal with a specific crankshaft sensor signal pattern (although some sophisticated software sets have a couple optional input patterns they will recognize), and either the sensor wheels or software must be modified to be compatible. Neither of these options is generally easy to do for the average enthusiast.
Click to expand...

You can deal with that with an MSD distributor with a "cam sensor" in it, but be ready to fork over $1000 or more by the time you're done. The control box is $400, the distributor is another $500 then there's "stuff" like a coil, etc...
Click to expand...

Mike, I been tossing that around on the sensor signature....I don't think that makes any sense to me.....you pass a piece of steel with serrated edges by a magnet with a coil of wire around it....the steel will obviously induce a signature in the wire....if you use both poles of the magnet or even just one, the only variation in signal would be what polarity you want or the amplitude........

NO??.....

steel passes, magnetized, notch appears, field collapses, kick back....

I really wonder if a infra red sensor signal isn't better, as really all I did on a Volvo engine boat I had in the early 90's...was take the X1-X2 pulse input on a Grand Am computer, and triggered it off a hole in the crank pulley running IR led's/pickups...and set it for 5 volt TTL level....

much cleaner and easier then messing with coils and magnets....

but not in a tranny, obviously....

:crutches:
Click to expand...
You can add a sensor to your existing distributor. I personally have never done it, but I Know people who have.
 
Jsup said:
mrvette said:
Jsup said:
69427 said:
The biggest issue I see is input signal compatibility with the ECM. The software is written to deal with a specific crankshaft sensor signal pattern (although some sophisticated software sets have a couple optional input patterns they will recognize), and either the sensor wheels or software must be modified to be compatible. Neither of these options is generally easy to do for the average enthusiast.
Click to expand...

You can deal with that with an MSD distributor with a "cam sensor" in it, but be ready to fork over $1000 or more by the time you're done. The control box is $400, the distributor is another $500 then there's "stuff" like a coil, etc...
Click to expand...

Mike, I been tossing that around on the sensor signature....I don't think that makes any sense to me.....you pass a piece of steel with serrated edges by a magnet with a coil of wire around it....the steel will obviously induce a signature in the wire....if you use both poles of the magnet or even just one, the only variation in signal would be what polarity you want or the amplitude........

NO??.....

steel passes, magnetized, notch appears, field collapses, kick back....

I really wonder if a infra red sensor signal isn't better, as really all I did on a Volvo engine boat I had in the early 90's...was take the X1-X2 pulse input on a Grand Am computer, and triggered it off a hole in the crank pulley running IR led's/pickups...and set it for 5 volt TTL level....

much cleaner and easier then messing with coils and magnets....

but not in a tranny, obviously....

:crutches:
Click to expand...
You can add a sensor to your existing distributor. I personally have never done it, but I Know people who have.
Click to expand...

Bird has a dizzy he playing with on adding Mopar guts to a Gm points dizzy...

:smash::smash::thumbs:
 
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