Reducers...Urethane.....

mrvette

Phantom of the Opera
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OK, apparently I was mixing some reducer a bit rich in the paint...instead of 4-1 more like as rich as 3-1.....so anyway, that attacked all the body work and primer.....so question is....

what happens when I sand down all this mess in the spots necessary, prime the damn thing again, and then reshoot the spots.....

can I just not use ANY reducer...or can I just use something else guaranteed to NOT affect the primer....thinner, min sprits, lacquer thinner....reducer bottle in parts house, says it is Acetone, and Methyl n-Amyl Ketone and Ethyl 3-Ethosypropinate.......I bought it because it's cheep...I can return it as it's not used...smells identical to the other shit....

the DuPOnt 35 bux/quart reducer that was in the primer is xylene, ethelbenzine, ethel acetate, toluene,MEK butyl acetate, then a couple different isocynates on the end....which I know is bad news shit....

SO, for the green paint itself, can I use ANY of the above instead of the same smelling shit the paint came with??? can I skip any primer application now and just use the green paint maybe without ANY reducer agent of any kind??? even if it take a month of sundays to dry???

one way or another, this shit going on the damn car and quickly....

:shocking:
 
Gene....Quick/Impatience is most likely what got you into this problem in the first place.

Take some advice from a "youngster"....take your time and get it right. You'll be happier when it is finished.
 
Gene....Quick/Impatience is most likely what got you into this problem in the first place.

Take some advice from a "youngster"....take your time and get it right. You'll be happier when it is finished.


Agreed 110%

Danny
 
Gene....Quick/Impatience is most likely what got you into this problem in the first place.

Take some advice from a "youngster"....take your time and get it right. You'll be happier when it is finished.


Agreed 110%

Danny

Fine, excellent, so WTF is 'RIGHT'???? this damn chemical crap seems that NO ONE KNOWS....freeking guessing game....

oh but polycantpronounceit from one company has to be SO different from the next outfit...that none of it makes any sense....

so...guess I will play with it all tmrw since it's raining...and see what gives...

brush some out on some plastic with NOTHING for a thinner, then another with some min spirits...and then with lacquer thinner....

as usual, Gene has to solve his own problems....

paint that destroys primer and eats into underlaying body work....BULLSHIT....

prime example of deliberate manipulation to keep market share....

Paint is paint, it's all Bullshit....on the damn car...house, whatEVER....

:crutches::devil:
 
Gene....Quick/Impatience is most likely what got you into this problem in the first place.

Take some advice from a "youngster"....take your time and get it right. You'll be happier when it is finished.


Agreed 110%

Danny

Fine, excellent, so WTF is 'RIGHT'???? this damn chemical crap seems that NO ONE KNOWS....freeking guessing game....

oh but polycantpronounceit from one company has to be SO different from the next outfit...that none of it makes any sense....

so...guess I will play with it all tmrw since it's raining...and see what gives...

brush some out on some plastic with NOTHING for a thinner, then another with some min spirits...and then with lacquer thinner....

as usual, Gene has to solve his own problems....

paint that destroys primer and eats into underlaying body work....BULLSHIT....

prime example of deliberate manipulation to keep market share....

Paint is paint, it's all Bullshit....on the damn car...house, whatEVER....

:crutches::devil:
I will try to help so lets start from the begining. What type of primer did you use? What type of top coat did you use? Is the primer lacquer based or urethane? One thing I know you can't put urethane on top of lac for it will lift. Lets try to figure this on out.

Danny
 
Gene....Quick/Impatience is most likely what got you into this problem in the first place.

Take some advice from a "youngster"....take your time and get it right. You'll be happier when it is finished.


Agreed 110%

Danny

Fine, excellent, so WTF is 'RIGHT'???? this damn chemical crap seems that NO ONE KNOWS....freeking guessing game....

oh but polycantpronounceit from one company has to be SO different from the next outfit...that none of it makes any sense....

so...guess I will play with it all tmrw since it's raining...and see what gives...

brush some out on some plastic with NOTHING for a thinner, then another with some min spirits...and then with lacquer thinner....

as usual, Gene has to solve his own problems....

paint that destroys primer and eats into underlaying body work....BULLSHIT....

prime example of deliberate manipulation to keep market share....

Paint is paint, it's all Bullshit....on the damn car...house, whatEVER....

:crutches::devil:
I will try to help so lets start from the begining. What type of primer did you use? What type of top coat did you use? Is the primer lacquer based or urethane? One thing I know you can't put urethane on top of lac for it will lift. Lets try to figure this on out.

Danny

Thanks man, the paint on the car when I got it 15 years ago was a old Ditzler Radiance paint...light dungaree blue oversprayed with Candy Crimson....looked GREAT and was about ten years old when I got the car...sure a few defects, but nothing MAJOR....well the last 12 years here in FLORIDA SUN was getting to it, I patched and painted and rescued what I could, but it was end of rope....

so I sanded down with 100-120 on a 1/2 sheet Milwaukee sheet sander...makes small circles with the paper, rubber pad....I used it for years on wood cabinets with no issues....
so on went DuPont Nason primer/filler, two coats+ and I worked it pretty damn slick all over water/moisture....all looked nice, wiped it down with prep sol and it looked good when wet....sanded primer with 320-400 and got a friend to look it over...he pointed to a few spots and I worked them again....
I filled in the grills on the back deck either side of the gas filler...'72 shark....layes in poly ester on top of mesh glass several layers with wood backing under it...beveled in and supposedly solid looked GREAT under the primer, which sat for a month+ under sun and driven almost daily over rough roads purposely to shake hell outta that body....so it looks good,

I spray on this shit from the source I posted about, claims to be DuPont and so selling product in bulk outta Missouri....vette related as a resto house...and so met him at Daytona car show about 3 months ago....

so he sends this shit, and it smells like typical urethane it's supposed to be, the thinnger smells like the DuPont, and so I shoot it maybe with too much reducer....thinner, and so it all attacks even the polyester part of the fiberglass, and raises it off the old glass on the back deck...all the body work on the rest of the car looks like shit now...every damn stratch that ever was there came through like crazy....amplified in fact....worse than with NO primer/filler...much worse....

what happened is that crap shrunk the underlying primer/fillers/epoxy/resins/bondo/whatever.....

so at this point I have sanded down the defects, going to shoot with spray bomb 'primer' in light gray, and shoot the paint with NO reducer/thinner ....but need do some testing first to see if the crap will even dry/get hard...

too much reducer would seem to say that it would harder quicker...but no this was still soft and in the summer sunlight, it would still be easy to dig my finger nail into it....even today, almost a month later....

IF I ever paint a car again...it's Rustoleum black primer, or maybe a water paint, laytex no more chemical BS to fuck up the works...

so to get some paint on this car now, this week, and call it a day....

:beer:
 
You don't have to know anything about the chemistry of the product, simply follow the manufacturer's instructions on the tech sheet.

It's very simple: mix 4 parts product A with 1 part product B. Note: it does not say to buy some cheap HomeDepot reducer for Rustoleum and to use that to safe $20....

The reducer should not lift the primer regardless of the ratio - the reducer evaporates anyways, it's only added to make the paint thin and sprayable. You can pour the reducer straight onto the cured primer and it should not make it soft...

I would think now that you're sanding the new paint off the car you'd be wishing you had stayed away from the cheap shit and spend the extra money in the first place.

With a good urethane primer like the shopline stuff this paintjob would be done by now.

I know this is not what you want to hear but: we never have the time or money to do the job right, yet we always have the time and money to do it over....
 
Karsten, I hear you, but what is 'right'??? urethane over urethane, the crap smells the same,

it should work...no?? why would it shrink the primer?? and delaminate the edges of the body work?? and greatly accentuate the problems??

even on lightly sanded areas of the hood, the glass pattern shows up under the new paint....it brought out the GLASS from under the old urethane on the hood, not EVER sanded OFF yet....looks like roving under there....

the old finish was slick as glass in that spot....WTF??

as if it was sprayed with acid or something....
 
generally, if you leave some old paint on the car then use a epoxy primer/sealer to make sure none of the new primer or base coat reacts with the old unknown paint. Better to get rid of everything and start fresh.

In your case I doubt that the primer was what you (or the Dupont guy) thought it was.... maybe just too old.... activator has a shelf life, that's why I offered the gallon clearcoat that I have ...
 
Gene, if the Ditzler Radiance paint was a lacquer based paint, then you would have needed a epoxy sealer before the urethane. You need the reducer in your mix and so when you said you might have put too much should not have lifted the primer if they were comparable. There is a very good paint forum at www.paintucation.com owned by Kevin Tetz. He is also the host of trucks on the speed channel network. Take a look there for tips. The site is a paint forum. You can call him or PM him and I know that he will help you. I called him many times and he was always willing to help me with painting issues. Even after helping me he follow up on how things turn out. He also has a host of DVD's on the subject too. Give him a shout.

Danny
 
You know you can always go online to to the manufactures web-site and they have tech sheets on what to use and mixing ratio's. But if you do not follow instructions that will not help either.
It's not rocket science,i have never painted a car before,and my paint came out great. But i also listened to what i was told,read,and followed directions,and stayed with 1 product line. Like i was told to do.
 
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You know you can always go online to to the manufactures web-site and they have tech sheets on what to use and mixing ratio's. But if you do not follow instructions that will not help either.
It's not rocket science,i have never painted a car before,and my paint came out great. But i also listened to what i was told,read,and followed directions,and stayed with 1 product line. Like i was told to do.

Mr.Kwplot34, might you be so critical? To point out your educated view that reading instructions of a product before use is a total waste of time, not to state cost and loss of man hours of labor. If so, then there would be no short cuts or in the paint business "there would have never been a flower child era????

I have followed this for a long time, seems to me " this is a book being composed "" of how not to "Paint your CAR". I would "suggest" a "MACCO Special of the day and one Royal Crown Cola, or just a brown paper bag.
 
Last edited:
You know you can always go online to to the manufactures web-site and they have tech sheets on what to use and mixing ratio's. But if you do not follow instructions that will not help either.
It's not rocket science,i have never painted a car before,and my paint came out great. But i also listened to what i was told,read,and followed directions,and stayed with 1 product line. Like i was told to do.

Mr.Kwplot34, might you be so critical? To point out your educated view that reading instructions of a product before use is a total waste of time, not to state cost and loss of man hours of labor. If so, then there would be no short cuts or in the paint business "there would have never been a flower child era????

I have followed this for a long time, seems to me " this is a book being composed "" of how not to "Paint your CAR". I would "suggest" a "MACCO Special of the day and one Royal Crown Cola, or just a brown paper bag.

Except that Maaco quoted 1200 bux IF I did all the body/prep work...with a disclaimer, and PLUS 200 for door jambs.....

so far I have about 200 into the project, plus the black powder coating on some metal pieces.....

and honestly, I wish I had just done the body work, shot the primer, and then gone with a nice inoffensive flat black by Rustoleum and got OVER with it.....not my fault some damn 'reducer' decided to attack other parts of the plastics, lifting the fiberglass resin off the glass in back, as I sanded it all down in spots, I find that in fact, the bondo is/was fine....what happened is that damn green paint shrunk hell out of the primer/filler ...the DuPont Nason....

when I get this sanded out again, only on spots, I"m using mineral spirits for 'reducer' for a couple spots, and see what happens....I bet it turns out FINE, any takers???

I figger this whay....Urethane cleans with lacquer thinner OR min spirits.....so if it's a cleaner, it damn sure will 'reduce' it too....the paint spilled on side of the can dried to hard as what was on the car,

I have used gallons of Minwax green Urethane clear Marine/Spar finishes over the decades, on kitchen cabinets, boats, bathroom cabinets, you name it....never a issue, damn rare to have even a BOAT problem....so who in hell kidding who, Urethane has to MEAN something as a type of paint, WTF it does mean is about as useless as them chemical names....bullshit in other words....SO since all these 'urethanes' thin and clean the same with min spirits, screw that isocynate stinky crap 'reducer' crap....

I"m trying it MY way this time.....the nitwit selling the paint said on the last phone call that is paint would shrink Nason primer......but in the booth at the Daytona show he has DuPonts emblem on the tent, talked like it was not a issue, and said clearly that it would go over Nason primer without any problems....

Years ago I shot some blue metallic paint on my boat up north, and I forget just what it was....but 5 years later, still looked good, THAT I remember....

so this time around the least offensiver chemical crap is the best....

can't get any worse, I figger....
 
"Quote" when I get this sanded out again, only on spots, I"m using mineral spirits for 'reducer' for a couple spots, and see what happens....I bet it turns out FINE, any takers??? :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot::censored::surrender:
 
"Quote" when I get this sanded out again, only on spots, I"m using mineral spirits for 'reducer' for a couple spots, and see what happens....I bet it turns out FINE, any takers??? :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot::censored::surrender:

Well, I can try lacquer thinner for that matter....dry quicker for sure....

maybe that's the trick, get it dry quick before any reactions take place....
 
I"m trying it MY way this time.....

You've done it your way the last time and it did not work too well....

A few things:
1) you cannot simply use a different reducer for the paint. I have a feeling this paint isn't really all that bad, it is just not compatible with the primer you used.
Just throw it out or paint your fence with this stuff.
2) If you don't sand this primer off the car you will run into nothing but problems - again.
3) You can't just blame the paint or reducer for being "too aggressive" to the unknown primer - shot over correct primer it's most likely fine, didn't you say that seller has pretty good feedback on Ebay?
4) The products that I posted links to are $350 - you already wasted $200 on this plus a lot of time and effort....

time to do it right....
 
I"m trying it MY way this time.....

You've done it your way the last time and it did not work too well....

A few things:
1) you cannot simply use a different reducer for the paint. I have a feeling this paint isn't really all that bad, it is just not compatible with the primer you used.
Just throw it out or paint your fence with this stuff.
2) If you don't sand this primer off the car you will run into nothing but problems - again.
3) You can't just blame the paint or reducer for being "too aggressive" to the unknown primer - shot over correct primer it's most likely fine, didn't you say that seller has pretty good feedback on Ebay?
4) The products that I posted links to are $350 - you already wasted $200 on this plus a lot of time and effort....

time to do it right....

I hear you man, but today, I"m shooting part of the suffering bastard HOOD, and the wiper door/filler panel and see what happens....can't be any worse....I hope...

:devil::flash:
 
You know the part of this whole thread that i like is," It's not my fault that the paint attacked and ruined everything"
Yea Gene,it is you're fault,you did not follow directions or listen to those that know what they are doing.
Quite making excuses and do it right,or give it up.
 
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