Trailing Arm Pivot Question

tonyv123

Wish,...Wish harder
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
38
Location
Colorado Springs, CO.
I was following along on Gary's TA rebuilding thread, and have a question. If my TA is moving up and down in the pocket, (in normal operation), isn't there major friction, (grinding) either between the adjustment shims and pocket walls, or shims and bushing washers? I can't see the bushings, poly or rubber, twisting inside the outer shells, with as much compression there is on them. What am I missing?
 
The arm and the bushing/sleeve move, the shims don't. Friction is between the innermost shims and the bushing washers. I used lots of antiseize when I installed mine, that was in 2004. So far so good, shims are still tight and it doesn't squeek.
 
Greasable...

No squeaky, Couldn't hear it if it did :bounce:

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84rvz500r,

With those spherical TA bearings, I don't suppose you could tell me the difference in road noise in a street driven corvette? It doesn't look like your car drives on the highway, but I was wondering if the noise/vibration, would be too much for an almost daily driver. I already have Poly everywhere else, and I actually like the solid feeling, road feedback it gives. Just don't know if it would be TOO much noise/vibration. Thanks! Tony
 
I put poly bushing back in my T/A's. I saw the arguments from both sides on the why and why not's. I put them in with loads of lube, and the bolt has enough anti-seize on it that my driveway will rust away first- and it's concrete.

SO far, (500 miles) no squeaks, and I think it drives great. But then again, with the F-41 springs and new Bilstein sport shocks, there is not a whole lot of movement. Maybe more than I realize, but I still don't see how there could be much.:beer:
 
I put poly bushing back in my T/A's. I saw the arguments from both sides on the why and why not's. I put them in with loads of lube, and the bolt has enough anti-seize on it that my driveway will rust away first- and it's concrete.

SO far, (500 miles) no squeaks, and I think it drives great. But then again, with the F-41 springs and new Bilstein sport shocks, there is not a whole lot of movement. Maybe more than I realize, but I still don't see how there could be much.:beer:

Having been behind the Red Monster, I say without reservation, there is not much movement. Just a lot of rocks.:clobbered:
 
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Since it's been brought up, if anyone's wondering what the case is against poly TA bushings... The TA not only rotates vertically in travel about the bushing end, but also traces an arc about it's hub end which results in track width change (and thus toe steer). Therefore, rotation about the TA bushing's axis isn't the only plane in which the TA moves.

The whole idea of poly in lieu of rubber bushings elsewhere being to reduce/eliminate compliance for improved suspension geometry control under high loads, it doesn't take very much movement out of alignment with the bushing's axis for binding forces (however slight they may or may not be) to start coming into play when the angle at which the TA is in relation to the bushing end changes as the hub end of the TA follows that arc.

I believe that the same basic argument can and has been made against poly camber strut rod bushings, and IMHO poly just isn't the best solution wherever suspension components are required to move in multiple planes/axes. Hope that's worth $.02 to someone.
 
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Since it's been brought up, if anyone's wondering what the case is against poly TA bushings... The TA not only rotates vertically in travel about the bushing end, but also traces an arc about it's hub end which results in track width change (and thus toe steer). Therefore, rotation about the TA bushing's axis isn't the only plane in which the TA moves.

The whole idea of poly in lieu of rubber bushings elsewhere being to reduce/eliminate compliance for improved suspension geometry control under high loads, it doesn't take very much movement out of alignment with the bushing's axis for binding forces (however slight they may or may not be) to start coming into play when the angle at which the TA is in relation to the bushing end changes as the hub end of the TA follows that arc.

I believe that the same basic argument can and has been made against poly camber strut rod bushings, and IMHO poly just isn't the best solution wherever suspension components are required to move in multiple planes/axes. Hope that's worth $.02 to someone.


Hell, I'll give you a nickle for that information.:D That has been the same thought I've had for years on Poly for the rear trailing arms. Good job on that.:beer:
 
I did a lot of reading and thinking about using poly bushings in the T/A's. If I was looking at serious track/autocross/whatever the the choice would be spherical joints. If I was going to drive it daily or even weekly, then the stock type rubber. The car had 7800 miles put on it by the PO since 1974 when I got it. the 500 miles (estimated) were put on during the Bird tour. That's the most it's ever had put on it in at one time. Usual trips have been out for a weekend Cruise night and back home. Maybe a total of 30 miles. All the rubber bushings were cracked and dried out, as were the brake hoses and tires. Hell, I replaced all the weatherstrips too. They were crunchy. Just fell to dust when I started removing them.
I went back with the poly bushings both for the stability and the fact they'll outlast me.
 
84rvz500r,

With those spherical TA bearings, I don't suppose you could tell me the difference in road noise in a street driven corvette? It doesn't look like your car drives on the highway, but I was wondering if the noise/vibration, would be too much for an almost daily driver. I already have Poly everywhere else, and I actually like the solid feeling, road feedback it gives. Just don't know if it would be TOO much noise/vibration. Thanks! Tony

Cant hear over the 502....

There is no comparison on smoothness and suppleness my current setup to what was there... 30+ yo stock rubbers. For stock I would go with rubber at the trailing arm rather than poly due to the way it is loaded.

I drive on the street every week in the Spring, Summer, and Fall... Not many amenities

:amused:
 
Since it's been brought up, if anyone's wondering what the case is against poly TA bushings... The TA not only rotates vertically in travel about the bushing end, but also traces an arc about it's hub end which results in track width change (and thus toe steer). Therefore, rotation about the TA bushing's axis isn't the only plane in which the TA moves.

The whole idea of poly in lieu of rubber bushings elsewhere being to reduce/eliminate compliance for improved suspension geometry control under high loads, it doesn't take very much movement out of alignment with the bushing's axis for binding forces (however slight they may or may not be) to start coming into play when the angle at which the TA is in relation to the bushing end changes as the hub end of the TA follows that arc.

I believe that the same basic argument can and has been made against poly camber strut rod bushings, and IMHO poly just isn't the best solution wherever suspension components are required to move in multiple planes/axes. Hope that's worth $.02 to someone.

:withstupid::thumbs::thumbs:
 
IF poly TA bushings are a higher durometer (stiffness) than the OEM rubber, this all makes sense. IF poly bushings are the same durometer as the rubber, there is absolutely no reason that they are not functionally equivalent to rubber in this application.

Polyurethane can be made hard as a rock or super soft. Sounds like the problem is not the material, it's the way it's made.
 
Poly is "sticky" and it smears. That's why they have to make it relativly hard to make it durable, if they make it too soft it won't hold shape and would wear out real fast. The rubber bushings are vulcanized to the steel sleeves, so there when the trailing arm moves the rubber actually winds and unwinds during rotation and side to side. The distortion is completely absorbed by the rubber.

I agree that poly is a poor choice for both the trailing arm pivot and the camber struts. I've seen quite a few messed up poly bushings. The thin edges start to break off first and then the center deteriorates. You should have seen the junk that came off v-twins car, and those bushings were maybe 5 years old with not that many miles.
 
Polyurethane can be made to be very durable in hard or soft. It's flexural fatigue resistance is higher than rubber.

I think the bushings available in poly are just not made for this application.
 
They are made to act as a bearing only, not as a bushing. The johnny joint is the best solution for this area.
 
Alright! Now I've got my brain wrapped around whats going on inside the TA pocket. The only thing that 'gives' is the rubber, not the toe shims against the washers.

Now, what is the difference between the spherical bearings, and the rubber bushings, interior NOISE level, and other than noise, why shouldn't I use the spherical bearings on a daily driven car?
 
At the risk of getting challanged to an infinite set of HPDE's I'll take a shot.

Depending on the joint type, the spherical joint will likely take some more maintenance over it's lifetime, especially when used in a street enviroment. It "may" wear out faster and it will likely act as a better conductor of sound energy to the speaker that is your cars interior...

As TT says the Johnny Joint seems like the best joint (they are greasable and are normally used on truck suspensions that wallow around in the mud). On a daily driver use the stock OEM quality rubbers they'll last another 20+ years.

Oh I almost forgot dont bother torquing the fasteners, just put some locktite on and snug'em up to what feels right. (just joking install as the assembly manual or service manual indcates)
 
Thank you again 84, although you recommend rubber for the street, I'm gonna go with the spherical. Reason being, you mentioned up higher that you run them on the street, with no mention of adverse affects. I don't have any amenities either, well I have a radio, but the music I listen to is my engine. So, I'll maintain them, and torque them in, (with a cheater bar!)
 
Thank you again 84, although you recommend rubber for the street, I'm gonna go with the spherical. Reason being, you mentioned up higher that you run them on the street, with no mention of adverse affects. I don't have any amenities either, well I have a radio, but the music I listen to is my engine. So, I'll maintain them, and torque them in, (with a cheater bar!)

Sorry If you misunderstood. I meant Rubber at the trailing arm pivot. Good quality rod ends are acceptable for the other linkages... I'd stay away from the aluminum links for the street...

:drink:
 
I was asked by BBShark to write a procedure on converting poly bushings to rubber bushings on the offset arms. So here it is.

To put it bluntly, these arms have terrible quality control, and I am not the first one to experience the bad design of these arms. I don't care what any of the vendors say - these arms have lots of fitment issues, and they will deny it when you try to converse with them. Here is what I found with my arms.

The bushings were installed on my arms when I received them. I installed them on the chassis. I tested the side to side movement of them before finding several flaws. One, the bushing cups started to push out of the piece of pipe at the end of the arm. These cups are supposed to be pressed in, and they were not - even though I was told by the vendor that they always press their's in. So I pulled the arms out and checked the bushings to see what was going on. I found another issue - the giant conical washers that the flares sit in were now deformed. This is due to the fact that there is a step in the piece of pipe before it is flared, and it essentially becomes one piece once the washer sits on this step, and then it is flared. Any side to side movement is taken by the washers because the poly isn't compressed, and the washer has become one with the piece of pipe. Only after the washers doform does the poly take any load. To put it simply, the design is terrible. Stick with rubber. There were also high spots in the metal which were preventing the bushing cups from sitting flat. Again, poor quality control. THe cups should also meet in the middle of the piece of pipe after being pressed in. Mine had an 1/8'' gap between them. The pipe was also no parallel on the end of the trailing arm, so I had to square those up using a file, but I will get to that later.

Cups starting to push out of the arm - these WERE NOT pressed in.

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Washers starting to deform before any load is put on the poly bushings. This is because the washer sits flat against a step in the piece of pipe, and then it is flared. Also, the poly isn't compressed like rubber is.

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Cups will not sit flat unless the high spots are removed.

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First thing I did was remove the bushings from the arm. I was able to push the cups out with my finger, no effort required - and this was still with the thick powdercoating in the hole. I measured the OD of the cups and realized that they were much smaller than the stock bushing cups. I would have to open up the bore of the hole so the rubber cups would be a press fit, but not so tight that you can't get the rubber bushings in the cups. But before I did that, I had to fix some other "mistakes". I removed all ther high spots on the arm which preventied the cups from fully seating.

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Next thing I did was remove the powdercoating from the hole. I cleaned it up with a wire wheel afterwards. Then I measured the distance between the two rubber bushing cups to see how much of the pipe I had to file away so they would meet in the middle. I also had to square the pipe up - they were not square before when the poly bushings were installed. Use a hand file, and keep measuring the depth of the pipe on all sides until they are equal - file away from just one side, leave the other side alone (I guess it depends on how the arms were welded, but I just filed away one side and made it square). Now, you need to make sure that the side you do not file is indeed square, or else all you will be doing is filing away the other side of the pipe until the sides are parallel to eachother, and it will be cocked.

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Now I had to open up the bore so that the new rubber cups would be a press fit, but not so tight that the bushings were going to deform when installed. I used a gringding stone to open up the bore, going round and round around the inside of the pipe. Now, because this is not the most accurate method, and you will get an out of round hole (not to the naked eye, but some parts of the hole will be a little larger than others when you measure it will a caliper), you will need to measure the pipe in several places and use the largest measurement you find, and imagine that as the size of the ID of the entire pipe. I know it sounds bubba, but these are bushing cups, not bearings for example. Do this until the largest ID of the pipe is around 10 thou smaller than the bushing cup - I had to sort of guess when it was going to be a nice fit, but I got it dead on. You will have to play around with it, just don't make it too big or else your cups won't be a press fit and they will be loose. I suppose you could weld your cups to the arm if they are not a press fit as well, but I didn't do that. SUpport the arm and use a socket/large hammer to smack the cups into the arm. go slowly and make sure to get them fully seated.

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Install your rubber bushings and you are done.

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