Oil pressure blowing oil filter seal?????

B

BlackRat

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
196
Well on to another problem that I just cannot explain! I had a Transdapt sandwich adapter on so I could run an oil temp guage. I could not get it to stop leaking no matter what I tried. Finally I said forget it and removed the adapter and screwed the PH30 filter back on to the OEM bypass. I cranked it up and blew oil past the seal. When I say blew I mean blew!!!

I figured Ok I unscrewed and reinstalled the filter several times while trying to fix the adapter leak so I must have damaged the seal. No big deal other than a huge mess to clean up. I went and bought a brand new PH30 filter and some oil. I did all the typical practices of cleaning the surface and yes making sure the old seal was not stuck on the motor. I tightened the filter hand tight which is what I have always done to the OEM bypass (Adapter removed). I had the wife crank the car up and within 10 seconds of watching I saw and heard a big pop from the back top side of the filter and here came the oil gushing out.

Pressure has always been 75lbs at idle and drops down to around 50 when warm. I am running a GM ZL1 pump and a moroso pick up. When the first filter blew my guage was showing 75ftlbs. The second time (New filter) I don't know what the guage was because I was laying on the ground watching the filter for leaks

Can this go bad??? Cause a problem like I am describing?
ses-3-60-08-900_w_m.jpg

I am at a lose for what to do or what happened. I swear I couldn't make up the bad luck I am having. I am not an incompotent man or at least I don't think I am....

I am scared to say what else could happen.......

Any ideas?

Wade
 
Do you have 2 filter gaskets in there :)

[EDIT] Oh wait, I see you checked for 2 filters.
 
big2bird said:
Your oil pump relief valve is stuck.
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Not disagreeing, but just confused here. Why is the pressure building up enough (to blow out the gasket) in the first place? I would expect little pressure drop across the filter, and then the usual pressure drop through the internals of the engine. On a normal setup I wouldn't expect the pump relief valve to be opening regularly, and particularly not at cranking speeds with summer temp oil. If you had both a downstream (of the filter) obstruction and a stuck shut (pump relief) valve I could understand the gasket failure. What am I missing here?
 
Are you cranking or running the engine? What oil grade? 75psi is pretty high. It's common for oil to bypass the filter (cold engine, running on non filtered oil, this is the reason I never run a bypass, I use heavy duty filters and a non bypassing adapter) so a stuck bypass would register high pressures, commonly up to max. pump psi set by relief spring in the pump body. Your report of originally haivng 75psi max. pressure w/ a cold running engine and it dropping to 50 supports the assumption that your pump relief spring is set @ 75 psi or thereabouts.

The ZL1/LS7 pump has 25% more gear surface than an ordinary pump, it will pump a significant amount of oil! That's why you have such hgh pressures, especially on a cold motor. An LS6 pump has 1.2" long gears, that LS7/ZL1 pump has 1.3" gears.
That sandwich adapter you had, was it a non bypassing oil cooler adapter of just a port plate/sandwich plate for an oil temp probe??

If you have a blockage upstream, bypassing the filter won't help at all, the pressure will climb to either the pumps max pressure or until something bursts, in your case the oil filter seal Also, the sender is located in the oil gallery AFTER the filter, so if you register pressure there that section of the oil gallery is pressurized. Are you getting oil out the rockers?
 
69427 said:
big2bird said:
Your oil pump relief valve is stuck.
Click to expand...

Not disagreeing, but just confused here. Why is the pressure building up enough (to blow out the gasket) in the first place? I would expect little pressure drop across the filter, and then the usual pressure drop through the internals of the engine. On a normal setup I wouldn't expect the pump relief valve to be opening regularly, and particularly not at cranking speeds with summer temp oil. If you had both a downstream (of the filter) obstruction and a stuck shut (pump relief) valve I could understand the gasket failure. What am I missing here?
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Oil pumps are positive displacement. On a new, tight engine, the total volume is not used. The excess goes out the pressure relief. If it sticks, and I have seen this before, it has to go somewhere. The filter is the weakest link.
 
Look what I found. My guess is I broke this during build up. This was the origional. I would think it explains why the plate adapter never would seal. Can I get one of these at a NAPA or AutoZOne? I know I can order one from SUMMIT but it wont be here in time for the cruise in tomorrow night..... If I order one should I get one without the bypass?

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BlackRat said:
Look what I found. My guess is I broke this during build up. This was the origional. I would think it explains why the plate adapter never would seal. Can I get one of these at a NAPA or AutoZOne? I know I can order one from SUMMIT but it wont be here in time for the cruise in tomorrow night..... If I order one should I get one without the bypass?

000_0311.jpg


000_0312.jpg
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That's a tad different. Use the same one. Call a few dealers. Someone will have one locally.
 
BlackRat said:
Look what I found. My guess is I broke this during build up. This was the origional. I would think it explains why the plate adapter never would seal. Can I get one of these at a NAPA or AutoZOne? I know I can order one from SUMMIT but it wont be here in time for the cruise in tomorrow night..... If I order one should I get one without the bypass?

000_0311.jpg


000_0312.jpg
Click to expand...

We carry them here at C.I.:phone:

Our part number G7300---GM number 3952301
 
Last edited:
BlackRat said:
Look what I found. My guess is I broke this during build up. This was the origional. I would think it explains why the plate adapter never would seal. Can I get one of these at a NAPA or AutoZOne? I know I can order one from SUMMIT but it wont be here in time for the cruise in tomorrow night..... If I order one should I get one without the bypass?

000_0311.jpg


000_0312.jpg
Click to expand...

We have seen many problems with those filter as we plug the bypass and use the Fram filter we have got complaints of only 30 to 35 pounds of pressure and when I tell them to get rid of the 2 dollar filter and use what I put on when I built the engine it would be fine, Sure enough the 1061 NAPA gold took care of the problem plenty of oil pressure.

Now look at it this way with the bypass not being plugged the bypass would be wide open letting unfiltered oil through the engine. We have seen this many many times before.

Cut the 2 oil filters open and compare how they are built as that will be a no brainer.
 
CNC BLOCKS said:
BlackRat said:
Look what I found. My guess is I broke this during build up. This was the origional. I would think it explains why the plate adapter never would seal. Can I get one of these at a NAPA or AutoZOne? I know I can order one from SUMMIT but it wont be here in time for the cruise in tomorrow night..... If I order one should I get one without the bypass?

000_0311.jpg


000_0312.jpg
Click to expand...

We have seen many problems with those filter as we plug the bypass and use the Fram filter we have got complaints of only 30 to 35 pounds of pressure and when I tell them to get rid of the 2 dollar filter and use what I put on when I built the engine it would be fine, Sure enough the 1061 NAPA gold took care of the problem plenty of oil pressure.

Now look at it this way with the bypass not being plugged the bypass would be wide open letting unfiltered oil through the engine. We have seen this many many times before.

Cut the 2 oil filters open and compare how they are built as that will be a no brainer.
Click to expand...

Here's what I do ( since 78- my blocks only ) I convert 68 and later blocks to use the 67 and earlier cansiter type. Then I block off the oil bypass. Works damn good. :D Ok I'll take questions now.:sweat:
 
FIXED!!!!!!! First cruise in tomorrow night!!!!

Luckily my machine shop is right down the road. He had a whole shelf of them and looked through and found the best one and gave it to me!!!!:thumbs:

He suggested that I use it just until my next oil change and then get a new one and yes he said ditch the FRAM as well. Should I get one of those adapters from summit that does not have a bypass?

Thanks
Wade
 
BlackRat said:
FIXED!!!!!!! First cruise in tomorrow night!!!!

Luckily my machine shop is right down the road. He had a whole shelf of them and looked through and found the best one and gave it to me!!!!:thumbs:

He suggested that I use it just until my next oil change and then get a new one and yes he said ditch the FRAM as well. Should I get one of those adapters from summit that does not have a bypass?

Thanks
Wade
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The idea of the bypass is to insure that the engine gets oil should the filter clog. They rarely do that unless you let the oil change go too long. So, I would not. Use a WIX 2 qt chevy, Part #51794. Good stuff.
 
big2bird said:
BlackRat said:
FIXED!!!!!!! First cruise in tomorrow night!!!!

Luckily my machine shop is right down the road. He had a whole shelf of them and looked through and found the best one and gave it to me!!!!:thumbs:

He suggested that I use it just until my next oil change and then get a new one and yes he said ditch the FRAM as well. Should I get one of those adapters from summit that does not have a bypass?

Thanks
Wade
Click to expand...

The idea of the bypass is to insure that the engine gets oil should the filter clog. They rarely do that unless you let the oil change go too long. So, I would not. Use a WIX 2 qt chevy, Part #51794. Good stuff.
Click to expand...


After 3o plus years of building performance engines I have never seen a oil filter plugged as there is still a bypass built into the WIX and NAPA filters and I have seen more damaged bearings because the bypass was not pluged on a rebuild engines where there was debris from and wiped out cam lobe and lifter.
 
CNC BLOCKS said:
After 3o plus years of building performance engines I have never seen a oil filter plugged as there is still a bypass built into the WIX and NAPA filters and I have seen more damaged bearings because the bypass was not pluged on a rebuild engines where there was debris from and wiped out cam lobe and lifter.
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Far be it from me to disagree with someone of your experience. That being said, I have a few questions for my edification.
1) If you install a non-bypass adapter with a WIX, that still has a bypass, what's the difference?
2)If you had an engine with wiped lobes, would you not bust it down and replace the main bearings anyhow?
I'm honestly just trying to follow the logic here., for everyone's benefit.
 
Just for my education:

If you wipe a cam and the bypass is plugged the filter will be plugged with the debris from the cam/lifter failure and it will either burst the paper element and then dump the debris back into the engine or just starve the engine for oil..

wrong ??


If your filter has a bypass then what's the benefit of plugging the other bypass ?

IMO it's safer to use a roller lifter cam and not worry about lobes anymore.
 
CNC BLOCKS said:
BlackRat said:
.............

We have seen many problems with those filter as we plug the bypass and use the Fram filter we have got complaints of only 30 to 35 pounds of pressure and when I tell them to get rid of the 2 dollar filter and use what I put on when I built the engine it would be fine, Sure enough the 1061 NAPA gold took care of the problem plenty of oil pressure.

Now look at it this way with the bypass not being plugged the bypass would be wide open letting unfiltered oil through the engine. We have seen this many many times before.

Cut the 2 oil filters open and compare how they are built as that will be a no brainer.
Click to expand...

Do I understand you correctly that the typical Fram filter has such a pressure drop across it that it exceeds the spring pressure rating of the bypass spring?
Click to expand...
 
69427 said:
CNC BLOCKS said:
BlackRat said:
.............

We have seen many problems with those filter as we plug the bypass and use the Fram filter we have got complaints of only 30 to 35 pounds of pressure and when I tell them to get rid of the 2 dollar filter and use what I put on when I built the engine it would be fine, Sure enough the 1061 NAPA gold took care of the problem plenty of oil pressure.

Now look at it this way with the bypass not being plugged the bypass would be wide open letting unfiltered oil through the engine. We have seen this many many times before.

Cut the 2 oil filters open and compare how they are built as that will be a no brainer.
Click to expand...

Do I understand you correctly that the typical Fram filter has such a pressure drop across it that it exceeds the spring pressure rating of the bypass spring?
Click to expand...

Exactly thats what I am saying as we have seen many times over the years the don't good filter paper and not much of it compared to the Wix or NAPA gold.

When running high volume pumps and heavier oils the Fram filter will not flow the required oil as we have seen this problem many times, Do a search on some other sites on Fram filters.

We take our circle track engines apart after a year or 2 of running and the bearings look good enough to put right back in.

We had a customer tear up 4 dist. gears at the track we got the engine back and changed the cam and lifters and shimmed the dist. correctly and after a season of running it cam back for a refreshen and not a mark on the bearings. the filter did its job.

Again cut a Fram open and a NAPA or WIX and compare the too.

And those filters have a bypass built into them thats the reason for the spring in the bottom of the filter and we have never seen one blow apart yet.

The filter adaptors we buy for some of our engines have no bypasses in them but require a good filter.

We have had engines come from other shops to get them apart and bearings are grooved from debis and the cranks are scored badly and a cheap filter and the bypass is not plugged.

At least on a street engine run it for 1500 miles or so with the bypass plugged and after that go to the standard adaptor if you want.
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