Anal retentive practices or not.

It's been awhile since we had a spirited discussion. How about Turtle's point that some of what we do is anal retentive, and what is important?
While it may be true that a 350SBC is quite durable, and foregiving of mechanial practices that will still allow it to function fairly reliable like a Model T engine, what do YOU find important?
Is it all that important?
Take for example. Balancing, a thread I have yet to start, and will be a seperate thread at some point. Just how important is it to you? What is the gain, and what is just "safe?"

OK, when I tear a engine out and down, I get a 5 gallon drywall bucket, and start tossing crap in it.....anything small enough to fit easily....

head bolts down to cap bolts, don't matter a whit damn, they all in there....

pour a couple gallons of gas over them....let it soak overnight....pour out the gas...and clean on the wire brush....

MY wire brush and grinder are on a old washing machine motor....one on each end....NO guards/crap to get in the way....so I can easy work on shit....figger the stone/brush rated to something like 4000 rpm.....I run it at 1700 rpm for decades now.....just a arbor bolted onto the shafts on each end....

when assy time comes, I take a 4x8 ply over couple saw horses....lay them all out by count and similarity.....piles and bunches of same family all over the place.....lay out for count, go to assemble, it's easy....

done countless pieces of machinery like this for decades now...no matter if it's a prototype kludge for a engineering company or a lawnmower engine....

BUT, I Have NEVER successfully assembled a complete short block ....just too much crap in there to cope with....mic this, file that, check this and that, number whatnot....hell with it, pay a guy 300 bux at the machine shop that MADE it, and let well enough alone....

however I have built about 3-4 auto trannies....they are more fun....

more shit than a Christmas turkey.....:trumpet::quote:

I believe your post about lifter order is important. Once them puppies rub awhile, they are married. Switching them around is trouble.:smash:

My personal anal thing is oil leaks. That engine will run forever with them, but annoy the hell out of me. It just doesn't take long to fix, and makes it so much easier to work on a clean engine. It keeps the engine clean, the driveway clean, hoses last longer(all rubber), and it's better for the earth.
But, my Model T leaks. It's just the design of the time. There is nothing you can do about it, and it's just the nature of the beast.

To me, anal rentetive goes with getting it done right. I don't want it to be just "OK" mainly because I don't want to have to worry about it or have to redo the job.

Of course, experience counts here. I've seen guys with experience discount the procedure and end up ok. The guys who are experienced AND anal rententive produce some fantastic work....maybe it's more than neccessary, but which individual would you want building your engine or diffy...personal preference...I'll go with the anal retentive/experience guy.

OK Turtle, tell me how I'm just pissing my money away:clobbered:

big2bird said:

I believe your post about lifter order is important. Once them puppies rub awhile, they are married. Switching them around is trouble.:smash:

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that's something i actually do believe in doing. There's just too much risk in a wiped cam lobe.

when i make a decision about whether to perform a procedure or not i ask a few things.

1. Is there any scientific basis for doing it and how convincing is it.
2. How much time and effort is required.
3. What is at stake? What is the risk of not performing the procedure.

And then sometimes i like to experiment and ignore common practices to see what will happen.

I don't think an engine needs to be balanced and blueprinted. Its something that shops make a shitload of money on though so the industry propagates the story that all engines should be custom balanced and blueprinted.

I bought a whole diff for $100 bucks that had all the ring bolts stripped. The bolts had backed out and scored the housing. I saved the carrier shims but lost track of which were on what side. I bolted the ring gear and spacer back on with common grade 8 bolts smearing loctite red on both sides of the spacer and the bolts. I just guessed on the shims. That diff has been noise and trouble free for 8 years and 120K miles. This is something i'm sure none of you would have done.

I could tell many stories like that. This is why i have developed my philosophy.

I use my head. Some things that many of you do, i won't do. One of the biggest is running spacers or adapters on wheels. I feel that is very dangerous.

No my engine compartment is not spotless and full of chrome. Neither of those things has anything to do with performance or reliability.

I see nothing wrong with that. What have you learned?

big2bird said:

I see nothing wrong with that. What have you learned?

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1. rear bearings can be slip fit to save a lot of trouble. I slip fit both and do not use a spacer. This setup has lasted 6 years and about 100k miles.
2. pushrod and rocker arm location is not important on reassembly. Mix them all up if you want.
3. U joints can be slip fitted.
4. You can pack a bearing cavity with a lot of grease before it slings it out through the seals.
5. I've never rebalanced a crankshaft on a rebuild and have been fine.
6. There is no downside to using a high volume oil pump.
7. Don't use pistons with an oil slot.
8. I did reuse old lifters with a brand new cam on my present engine. Did not use any assembly lube. That shit is overblown too. Assembly lube washes off within seconds. Again 100K+ miles on that cam.

that's all i can remember right now. Maybe some of you can remember other outrageous crap i have claimed to have done over the years.

My head is still attached.

The only thing hard to believe is how someone who works from home, and is on here almost all day every day manages to drive 20,000 miles a year. When do you do that?:smash::wink:

big2bird said:

The only thing hard to believe is how someone who works from home, and is on here almost all day every day manages to drive 20,000 miles a year. When do you do that?:smash::wink:

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unlike you guys this is my daily driver. I use it on business trips all the time. Trips to the track are 1200 miles.

I'm not on here all the time, but keeping the page open and minimized makes it look it.

turtlevette said:

big2bird said:

The only thing hard to believe is how someone who works from home, and is on here almost all day every day manages to drive 20,000 miles a year. When do you do that?:smash::wink:

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unlike you guys this is my daily driver. I use it on business trips all the time. Trips to the track are 1200 miles.

I'm not on here all the time, but keeping the page open and minimized makes it look it.

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The 81 of Teri's is used 24/7. You are not the only one. She gets pissed when I tell her to take the truck. I have to have it available at all times. I also have to ask her when I take it.:lol:
One member takes his deer hunting.
Some of us just buy more than one car every 30 years.:lol:

I expect that there is a decided difference between engineering a relatively stock motor, and a race motor.

on a relatively stock 350 motor like turtles that turns maybe 6K when he is really ragging on it, and a 4" stroker motor that spins 7000+rpm regularily with aggressive ramp camshafts with huge spring pressures.

Completely different engineering criteria.

Balancing - Depends on the expected RPM, a washing machine doesnt start rattling the house down till it winds all the way up, slow rotating devices not so important and probably more tolerant to out of balance conditions.

Assembly lube and reusing lifters - on slow and low camshaft like a stocker, it probably isn't important, because when you get a new camshaft and break it in they aint matched then either. Mr. Vizard does recommend that you tape some wet dry paper to your desk and move the lifter in a figure 8 formation to sort of round the flat of the lifter.

The small block was designed to be serviced by high school drop outs. A race motor is built by highly skilled engineers. 2 entirely different animals with 2 entirely different criteria.

I never torque bolts

Only my half shaft bolts have came loose so far :blush:

turtlevette said:

big2bird said:

I see nothing wrong with that. What have you learned?

Click to expand...

1. rear bearings can be slip fit to save a lot of trouble. I slip fit both and do not use a spacer. This setup has lasted 6 years and about 100k miles.
2. pushrod and rocker arm location is not important on reassembly. Mix them all up if you want.
3. U joints can be slip fitted.
4. You can pack a bearing cavity with a lot of grease before it slings it out through the seals.
5. I've never rebalanced a crankshaft on a rebuild and have been fine.
6. There is no downside to using a high volume oil pump.
7. Don't use pistons with an oil slot.
8. I did reuse old lifters with a brand new cam on my present engine. Did not use any assembly lube. That shit is overblown too. Assembly lube washes off within seconds. Again 100K+ miles on that cam.

Click to expand...

Nothing earth shattering here. I could argue with #2, but it's not THAT important, just not good practise. Any pushrod in service will wear differently, and would be BETTER reterned to it's original position. That would include it's respective rocker and ball/nut.

turtlevette said:

big2bird said:

I see nothing wrong with that. What have you learned?

Click to expand...

1. rear bearings can be slip fit to save a lot of trouble. I slip fit both and do not use a spacer. This setup has lasted 6 years and about 100k miles.
2. pushrod and rocker arm location is not important on reassembly. Mix them all up if you want.
3. U joints can be slip fitted.
4. You can pack a bearing cavity with a lot of grease before it slings it out through the seals.
5. I've never rebalanced a crankshaft on a rebuild and have been fine.
6. There is no downside to using a high volume oil pump.
7. Don't use pistons with an oil slot.
8. I did reuse old lifters with a brand new cam on my present engine. Did not use any assembly lube. That shit is overblown too. Assembly lube washes off within seconds. Again 100K+ miles on that cam.

that's all i can remember right now. Maybe some of you can remember other outrageous crap i have claimed to have done over the years.

My head is still attached.

Click to expand...

How do you slip fit a ujoint..never heard of that. You talking half shaft and drive shafts? Just get the correct size and put it in?


Would you balance a new crankshaft?

guru said:

I expect that there is a decided difference between engineering a relatively stock motor, and a race motor.

on a relatively stock 350 motor like turtles that turns maybe 6K when he is really ragging on it, and a 4" stroker motor that spins 7000+rpm regularily with aggressive ramp camshafts with huge spring pressures.

Completely different engineering criteria.

Balancing - Depends on the expected RPM, a washing machine doesnt start rattling the house down till it winds all the way up, slow rotating devices not so important and probably more tolerant to out of balance conditions.

Assembly lube and reusing lifters - on slow and low camshaft like a stocker, it probably isn't important, because when you get a new camshaft and break it in they aint matched then either. Mr. Vizard does recommend that you tape some wet dry paper to your desk and move the lifter in a figure 8 formation to sort of round the flat of the lifter.

The small block was designed to be serviced by high school drop outs. A race motor is built by highly skilled engineers. 2 entirely different animals with 2 entirely different criteria.

Click to expand...

Well put.
Centrepedal forces do square with increased RPM. It will get examined in a balance thread.

Yellow73SB said:

I never torque bolts

Only my half shaft bolts have came loose so far :blush:

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I would have to say that luck has been on your side.

I don't think every bolt, nut, and screw needs to be torqued in an automotive application.

"BUT" what is the value of feeling secure KNOWING that nothing is going to "accidentally" come loose at 100+ MPH?

Many races are won or lost because of the prep work done before..

turtlevette said:

I use my head. Some things that many of you do, i won't do. One of the biggest is running spacers or adapters on wheels. I feel that is very dangerous.

No my engine compartment is not spotless and full of chrome. Neither of those things has anything to do with performance or reliability.

Click to expand...

Worried about breaking billet aluminum? Quite sure you'd snap a wheel stud before you break a 2" thick piece of billet aluminum. I've put plenty of power through mine, still fine!

I can be very frugal when it comes to stuff, and spare no expense when it comes to other stuff. As an example, I have a fully forged balanced rotating assembly, but I bought my racing seats used at a swap meet for $100. Bought Nitto tires, but I cut my own carpet instead of buying a kit.The only thing I can think of that I'm anal about is using synthetic oil and non-Arco 91 octane. I will NOT use Arco and I would never run my engine with organic oil. Synthetic in the trans and diff too. I even fill my Neon with Mobil 1 and I have Redline in the transaxle.

I'm pretty anal about upkeep and maintanence,if it's broke or leaking fix it,if it's dirty clean it,one thing i cannot stand is a filthy greasy engine.when it comes time for repairs don't skimp on parts get the good stuff.I may go overboard with some things like using royal purple XRP oil and keeping my car clean inside and out,but i have always believed if you take care of your equipment it will give you many years of reliable service.
And yes the motor should be balanced as should your tires,vibration is a killer plus its annoying at higher speeds,keep it balanced the bearings will thank you

big2bird said:

My personal anal thing is oil leaks. That engine will run forever with them, but annoy the hell out of me. It just doesn't take long to fix, and makes it so much easier to work on a clean engine. It keeps the engine clean, the driveway clean, hoses last longer(all rubber), and it's better for the earth.
But, my Model T leaks. It's just the design of the time. There is nothing you can do about it, and it's just the nature of the beast.

Click to expand...

OK, I'll bring the C2 over and YOU can do the rear main seal.:friends:

I'm not anal about anything. Well, maybe.................no, not even that.:amused: